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Old 05-23-2013, 02:04 PM   #121 (permalink)
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Are they going to be as accurate ?
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Old 05-23-2013, 02:20 PM   #122 (permalink)
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Did Scarab say if the backs were bio-degradable?
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Old 05-23-2013, 02:31 PM   #123 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ein_Windir View Post
I shot some at LL6 in my TGR2. I compared the FPS of the 1-2-1 to FSR and it was a big difference. The FSR were at 260-270 FPS and the 1-2-1 were at 380-390 FPS. I was using my hammerhead barrel and the largest spring.
So still not the "final product" then?

- if there is a 120 FPS difference they are roughly weighing in still at the 1.97 vs 3.2 ish 121 vs FSR weight difference

- with the ASTM max weights by volume set at I believe
43 caliber – 0.90 grams
50 caliber – 1.40 grams (assuming that your paint even weighs that much)
55 caliber – 1.70 grams
121 @ 1.97ish currently or 2.3 source dependent

62 caliber – 2.50 grams
FSR @ 3.2ish +/1

68 caliber – 3.50 grams
They would have to almost add another 50 cal rounds worth of weight to get close to what the FSR is at. This is assuming since they are "adding" a fin system to 50 cal paint that they have to adhere to those same guidelines.

This could also have some bearing on the use of these IMO and also has a "fill" volume of 68 vs 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by AGD
Hello Everyone,

...
First of all, I have actually PLAYED with 50 cal back in the day using Budd's Sniper. In the 80's 50 cal held the same hope it does today, a way to sell cheaper paint and get more of it in the gun. Back then it was a double bonus since a 12 gram would fire a whole lot more 50's than 68's. As you can imagine, the 50 had piss poor accuracy and didn't break. It was quickly given up on along with 62 cal. promoted by Tippmann.

My read of the story tells me something different that I will SPECULATE on. Richmond sold his company from what I understand, and likely has a specific non-compete. The 50 cal ball probably gets around this and this could be the major motivation. I know personally because we have the same thing between Pepper Ball and FN, in our case the weight of the ball makes the difference.

I have to think that as you have already speculated, they took the ability to make fragile paint and mixed in a heavy fill to get a small 3.3 gram paintball. This should in fact be more accurate and fly farther at the same velocity. The reduction in frontal area is a big plus and the issues with a smaller ball and vortex shedding should not negate all of those gains.

The big trick will be to see if they break well. With a 50 you are distributing the energy no matter what over a smaller area. The smaller shape of the ball makes it inherently harder to break all things being equal. I don't think you can go much thinner in the paint shell and still be able to seal it together so they are probably making the shell tensile strength weaker. By my estimations they will hurt more with 3.3 grams at 300 fps.

The fill will absolutely be the most challenging part hands down. I calculated that a 50 has .07 cu inch of fill against the 68 at .16. So a bit better than 2-1. In order to make a heavier 50, you have to come up with a NON-TOXIC fill that's TWICE as heavy. This is no easy task. Most liquids hover around a specific gravity of 1-1.5 ish. There are liquids that get up to 2.0 but they are all toxic that I know of. We used liquids to 3.0 in the early 90's when we were investigating paintball accuracy and I still have the stuff today because you can't throw it away.

So here is the specific problem the way I see it. In order to up the weight of the fill you have to put some type of particle in it. Ground rock, powdered metal (bismuth) etc. We went down this road, the problem was that we could never inject a slurry through a needle without the needle plugging up no matter what we did. Eventually we gave up and put the powder in first and the fluid in after. Today's gelatin machines absolutely depend on a needle injecting the fluid into the ball as it pinches off the seam. I am dying to see how they accomplish this but Richmond has some pretty smart people around him.

Other problems you don't think about are things like the size of the holes in the mask. A 50 can squeeze through a pretty small hole in a rubber mask guard. My question is who is going to build a motorized hopper for these guns???

The can fit way more holes in the drum of the gelatin machine so the output per hour per machine will probably be more than double having an impact on cost. The fill has to add to the price so we will see how it shakes out. Remember to calculate the price per POUND of 50 vs 68 paintballs to see if there was really an economic advantage.
...

AGD
- Spinning an "inferior" (lighter, weight distribution etc etc) product at $30/100
or
using 68 cal with an APEX at $40 (onetime) + $60/2k
or
just spending the money on the FSR

- making me wonder if this is going to work out like Hydrotec

.02
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I translated this as: Scenario games are popular with overshooting douchebags raging on cocaine and steroid cocktails while roasting puppies and punching babies. Stay home unless you enjoy impromptu fistfights.

Last edited by EL17E 76; 05-24-2013 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:22 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redthirst View Post
100+ FPS difference?

Lowering the 121 to FS speeds has got to increase the shots per tank pretty significantly, right?
remember, muzzle velocity isnt the whole picture. What we're looking for is muzzle ENERGY. Some measure of brittleness wouldnt hurt either.

Personally, what im more interested in is the 121's flight ballistics (especially compared to the FS round). A lighter round with a faster speed may have its potential if its able to maintain most of it's initial speed during extended flight.

Last edited by -=ArchAngel=-; 05-23-2013 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:42 PM   #125 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=ArchAngel=- View Post
remember, muzzle velocity isnt the whole picture. What we're looking for is muzzle ENERGY. Some measure of brittleness wouldnt hurt either.

Personally, what im more interested in is the 121's flight ballistics (especially compared to the FS round). A lighter round with a faster speed may have its potential if its able to maintain most of it's initial speed during extended flight.
Of course, but people were wanting to know what would justify using these rounds over FS besides the price and getting 25% (made up figure) more shots for the same amount of air seems like it could be a selling point.

Even if it's less accurate and has less distance than a FS (but still more than a regular PB) - if it uses far less air then I could see it being a perfect Pistol round or the ammo of choice for people who use mag-fed rifles and very small tanks.
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Old 05-23-2013, 04:34 PM   #126 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=ArchAngel=- View Post
... A lighter round with a faster speed may have its potential if its able to maintain most of it's initial speed during extended flight.
Only if it has a better ballistic coefficient. I've seen nothing that supports this being the case.


My Assumptions:
121 round has a Form Factor (nose and tail shape) equal to or worse than an FS round.
121 round has a weight worse than an FS round (this is a fact so far as published, and I believe I heard the rep at LL say 2.x grams)
121 round has a diameter approximately the same as an FS round (this is fact so far as published).

My Conclusion:
The round will definitely fly worse than an FS round.

Further Analysis:
Assuming that the Form Factor (i) of the 121 is the same as the FS round (.9070), the weight is 2.3grams, and the diameter is .685 (like an FS round):
Variables:
Form Factor (i) = .9070
Weight in pounds (M): .0051
Square of Diameter in inches (A): .685^2 = .4692

Equations:
SD = M/A
BC = SD/i

Solve for SD:
.0051/.4692 = .0109

Solve for BC:
.0109/.9070 = .0120
For comparison, here are other BC values:
.683, 3g paintball: .0057
SA 121 Round: .0120
First Strike Round: .0162

This is of course assuming that the form factor is not degraded by the forward shell lip, or the skirt shape/condition, and that the centes of gravity and pressure allow the round to be stable in flight.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:40 PM   #127 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rancid1845 View Post
Did Scarab say if the backs were bio-degradable?
Yes they will be bio-degradable, they have to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertT1 View Post
Yes.

Did they say when they would be available?
Around July or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamAreI View Post
Are they going to be as accurate ?
Yes, maybe better. Much testing will have to prove they might be better then FSR. We were using G.I. 50 cal and they weren't fully filled. SA is making fully fill rounds to get the most paint in the 1-2-1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EL17E 76 View Post
So still not the "final product" then?

They would have to almost add another 50 cal rounds worth of weight to get close to what the FSR is at. This is assuming since they are "adding" a fin system to 50 cal paint that they have to adhere to those same guidelines.
Once I get some, I'll weight some and post the numbers. They are making the ball and fins separately right now. If they make the shell more brittle then I don't think there will be a break issue. They did break on hard targets a lot better then a FSR.

If I get more new I will let you all know.
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Old 05-24-2013, 12:23 AM   #128 (permalink)
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Does anyone know if these rounds will be on display at Oklahoma D-Day? I would love to get my hands on some.
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Old 05-24-2013, 08:48 AM   #129 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ein_Windir View Post
Yes, maybe better. Much testing will have to prove they might be better then FSR. We were using G.I. 50 cal and they weren't fully filled. SA is making fully fill rounds to get the most paint in the 1-2-1.



Once I get some, I'll weight some and post the numbers. They are making the ball and fins separately right now. If they make the shell more brittle then I don't think there will be a break issue. They did break on hard targets a lot better then a FSR.

If I get more new I will let you all know.
even a fully filled 50 cal (.07)will still have less than half the amount of a 68 (.16) which I believe is still less than the FSR (.08) - and balistically weighted differently ?no?

You can only make the shell so thin before it will not seal/stay sealed properly. Although if they made the shell the same thickness as standard they could add a process of scoring the shell if the force of the marker firing is completely taken up by the "fin" as opposed to the ball. Which would actually work in their favor I suppose to be able to make the shell fragments a "standard" size/shape they could enhance the splat pattern of the round.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightstar View Post
I translated this as: Scenario games are popular with overshooting douchebags raging on cocaine and steroid cocktails while roasting puppies and punching babies. Stay home unless you enjoy impromptu fistfights.
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:07 AM   #130 (permalink)
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The 121 round is significantly lighter than an FS round and nearly insignificantly narrower (if not wider). Given that there is nothing about the 121 to give it an aerodynamic edge, it will fly worse than an FS round. Period.

I'm not opposed to this round coming to the market. I believe in round diversity. But, I feel folks should have a realistic expectation of what each projectile brings to the field.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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