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Old 05-24-2013, 10:13 AM   #131 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uv_halo View Post
The 121 round is significantly lighter than an FS round and nearly insignificantly narrower (if not wider). Given that there is nothing about the 121 to give it an aerodynamic edge, it will fly worse than an FS round. Period.

I'm not opposed to this round coming to the market. I believe in round diversity. But, I feel folks should have a realistic expectation of what each projectile brings to the field.
For me it's pointless if it doesn't perform the same or better than the current first strike round.
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:56 AM   #132 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Crimson Death View Post
For me it's pointless if it doesn't perform the same or better than the current first strike round.
See and for people that think as that it is a no brainer stick with the FSR

Let us make a supposition
suppose the 121 performs close to or the same up to say 50 yards(fictitious range used testing would need to be done to see where the performance mark dropoff is) same flat trajectory etc etc etc

you know this and use say 121s for 68 cal ranges/moving to cover, when your position gets pushed in on, overrun, need that double tap etc etc

once in position and in the clear you are then able to switch to your "long range" FSR - that shoots the same at that 50 yards but also has the heavier round for those extended range 1 shot hits that you are relying on to break every time etc etc etc

Is it worth the 10cent savings to be able to practice at that 50' range with no discernable difference in the two rounds performance
Although I suppose if you are on a CQB field and you are always inside those ranges but wanted a similar performing round at a cheaper cost it might be worth it.

is the 10cent saving enough in general?
20cents I would say definitely
being able to shoot 3 rounds instead of 4 for the same price meh

If they get the weight up to FSR range - and the splat and performance are similar then obviously the 10cents makes a difference; as it stands right now with the limited info available not for me.

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I translated this as: Scenario games are popular with overshooting douchebags raging on cocaine and steroid cocktails while roasting puppies and punching babies. Stay home unless you enjoy impromptu fistfights.

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Old 05-25-2013, 12:09 AM   #133 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uv_halo View Post
Only if it has a better ballistic coefficient. I've seen nothing that supports this being the case.


My Assumptions:
121 round has a Form Factor (nose and tail shape) equal to or worse than an FS round.
121 round has a weight worse than an FS round (this is a fact so far as published, and I believe I heard the rep at LL say 2.x grams)
121 round has a diameter approximately the same as an FS round (this is fact so far as published).

My Conclusion:
The round will definitely fly worse than an FS round.
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I think its quite definite that the 121s wont fly as well during extended period of time. That is a given. But what i was thinking of was, what advantage(s) does the 121 have on the FS round (if any) and how/if we can utilize it?
Given that the FS round absolutely beats the snot outta the 121 in long range capabilities, the 121s only hope is something other than that. As the 121 doesnt offer enough benefit to cost over the regular paintball which is the most cost efficient in close range, the only thing left for the 121 is medium range. This makes sense as it flies better than a regular paintball (close range), but worse than FS (long range)
Now when the FS's ballistic trajectory excels at long range, it also implies that it also does exceptionally well at medium range as well. Then how can the 121 do better? The one and only ballistic leg up the 121 is its muzzle velocity.(This is assuming that the 121 is fired at the same muzzle energy as you would a fs round, thus allowing a much higher muzzle velocity ) Its only hope is that it can reach out to medium range targets noticeably QUICKER. In other words, what im hoping for is when shooting at medium range targets, the time it takes to reach the target is much shorter. If the 121 can do this, it will make hitting moving/dodging/snapping targets at medium range much easier to hit. This however, can only be achieved if its velocity doesnt plummet before it reaches its intended range.

But of course, this is just conjecture. This theory really relies on a lot of big IFs, and even if it works, it might not be cost effective given that the 121s arent that much cheaper than fs rounds.
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Old 05-25-2013, 12:31 AM   #134 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by -=ArchAngel=- View Post
...Then how can the 121 do better? The one and only ballistic leg up the 121 is its muzzle velocity.(This is assuming that the 121 is fired at the same muzzle energy as you would a fs round, thus allowing a much higher muzzle velocity ) ...
Unfortunately, this is very unlikely to happen (in the U.S. anyways, not sure about Canada, while I believe Japan and the EU specify energy). A lot of folks hoped that .50 rounds would be able to be fired at a higher velocity but, they weren't / aren't. The way I understand it, here in the U.S. all of the safety recommendations (by ASTM) and insurance requirements are written around FPS and not Joules/ftLbs/etc.
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Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 05-25-2013, 12:50 AM   #135 (permalink)
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And so long as we are limited by fps then the heavier more aerodynamic round will always win, which the 121 is neither. The only way this will be successful is if it is cheaper. Then at least it will fill a niche in that it is in the middle between normal balls and fsr
Which isnt a bad thing at all.
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Old 05-25-2013, 01:59 AM   #136 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by uv_halo View Post
Unfortunately, this is very unlikely to happen (in the U.S. anyways, not sure about Canada, while I believe Japan and the EU specify energy). A lot of folks hoped that .50 rounds would be able to be fired at a higher velocity but, they weren't / aren't. The way I understand it, here in the U.S. all of the safety recommendations (by ASTM) and insurance requirements are written around FPS and not Joules/ftLbs/etc.
Ballz! That really throws a wrench in my plan lol. Hope things are different here in Canada
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Old 05-25-2013, 04:47 AM   #137 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by -=ArchAngel=- View Post
Ballz! That really throws a wrench in my plan lol. Hope things are different here in Canada
No, it isn't. 300 FPS is the safety standard, through and through. this applies to the safety gear (masks) and the absolute FPS limit enforced by every legitimate field in Canada, regardless of caliber.
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Old 05-25-2013, 10:30 AM   #138 (permalink)
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If they want to make a round that is useful make a practice round that duplicates the FS numbers.

Make it bright orange or something like that.

We made plastic delrin FS rounds that shot just as good as the real thing. We were always losing them and breaking the fins so they are not forever and they saved a lot of money.

Although we did not shoot them out of a rifled barrel.

They could be made out of a denser foam to get the weight up. I used to make and shoot a lot of wax bullets and I would put a BB in the nose and it improved the accuracy a 100%.

They could make it nose heavy with those little 43 caliber rubber balls that R4 sells. This would give it better accuracy.

It would be no difference than shooting reball. I don't think they would be as brutal as reball. But you wouldn't be using it in a game.

You could load the nose with a chalk powder for a spectacular visual aid.

They are already molding the round just take it to the next level.

I would be in for some.
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Old 05-25-2013, 11:44 AM   #139 (permalink)
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And as far as gear goes mask,protectors and what ever else people wear make First Strike
approved gear.
This thing is not going away so safety gear manufactures need to get on board.Be the first. Our mask can take a direct point blank First Strike hit.

If it's only the mask that makes insurance companies nervous make a thicker lens.

Most other extreme sports have tougher gear.

Change the rules ! Make better safety gear.

This is a First Strike Game 350 FPS. You must wear FS approved gear to play in this game. The Ref will check you gear.

We do it now.This is a pump only game,this is a a stockclass only game,this is a 40 round only game,ect.

We obey rules now. Just change the rules for First Strike.

If we change the rules the guns will get better,the gear will get better and the game experience will get better.

This will not affect paintball games. People will still play paintball with round gelatin balls filled with paint.
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Old 05-25-2013, 12:21 PM   #140 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCMachinist View Post
If they want to make a round that is useful make a practice round that duplicates the FS numbers.

Make it bright orange or something like that.

We made plastic delrin FS rounds that shot just as good as the real thing. We were always losing them and breaking the fins so they are not forever and they saved a lot of money.

Although we did not shoot them out of a rifled barrel.

They could be made out of a denser foam to get the weight up. I used to make and shoot a lot of wax bullets and I would put a BB in the nose and it improved the accuracy a 100%.

They could make it nose heavy with those little 43 caliber rubber balls that R4 sells. This would give it better accuracy.

It would be no difference than shooting reball. I don't think they would be as brutal as reball. But you wouldn't be using it in a game.

You could load the nose with a chalk powder for a spectacular visual aid.

They are already molding the round just take it to the next level.

I would be in for some.
I'm working on it as part of my Flexrounds series



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