General

[Azzy]

No, I was asking if they did. That may be why they were found at fault, for a product that came without instruction (the AS kit) or a faulty product(the as kit, not the tank)

If it was a tank fault, then Catalina or whoever would of been sued.

[HP_Lovecraft]

Originally Posted by Azzy

Did NPS sell the AS kit though, and did it come with loctite?

I thought the tank was bought off Ebay? That is what I read on the report that I saw a few years ago.

If the A/S was installed by an NPS tech, and they were the ones that damaged, or otherwise bypassed the safety vent, then I might have to agree the lawsuit has some validity. NPS should have known better.

But I wasnt aware that NPS had techs, let alone the ability to install anti-siphons. I've never seen that service offered.

Regardless of what NPS did, or did not do, the NYTs article is clearly wrong. The industry switched to the venting valves back in 1990.

nick

[Weltz4u]

Yea NPS/Kee do tech the markers they sale (House Brands) and I know for a fact that at one time they did install all their own valves onto co2 tanks. I'm not sure if they still do their own valve installs, but as I see it this is where the industry as a whole needs to come together to properly train and inform techs and field owners. Speaking from a field owners point of view, everyone wants to do thier own thing and there will come a point when this just wont cut it anymore. Specific training needs to be in place in order for the sport to continue to grow safley.

[Mr. Furious]

Regardless of why it happened or how it happened, it happened. The guy who lost his wife is working to make sure that all of us are playing with safe equipment. If one life is saved by what this man did, then it's worth a slightly biased article in the Times. I didn't read the article as bashing paintball, (there's certainly plenty of ammunition to do that on my state's road signs) I read it as an informative article meant to bring a rare but dangerous occurrence to light. Nothing wrong with that.

They did mention that millions of players every week that use their tanks without incident and gave folks from the paintball community a chance to tell their side although it was pretty brief.

The field this happened at closed shortly after the incident. Is it worth an article in the New York Times that brings attention to this type of issue to save your field? It's worth it to save mine.

BTW: The death occured in 2004. Not 1990, not 1992, 2004. So obviously more needs to be done. The sport is growing so that means the law of averages regarding accidents and injury grows right along with it.

There is no reason to be defensive or rationalize why it occured. The accident occured. That is irrefutable. Just because some members here know why it happened does not mean many others do. Perhaps this article will make field and pro-shop owners take a little closer look at the incident and make sure that they are not sitting a timebomb of their own. If paintball gets safer, paintball will remain. If paintball becomes more dangerous, paintball will disappear.

If an article like this makes KEE stick to it's agreements and warn people as they are supposed to, then IMHO it's good no matter how it's spun.

[Drum]

There is, however, a point at which a distributor can and should be held liable for injuries caused by the products that the sell, even if they nev3er manufacture anything.

Let's take the cigarette analogy and see if we can use it to explain the reasoning process.

First off, the analysis is NOT whether the product could be made safer. Every product can be made safer for all practical purposes.

The question becomes whether the product is "safe" as it exists.

In the case of cigarettes, there is no "safe" brand, but they are considered saleable because of the warning on the side (ie bad for pregnancy, may cause cancer, etc.). The agreement was that smokes could be sold to adults with that warning as "safe" for consumption.
They're not, of course, but for argument purposes, cigs are safe for their intended purpose and thus, legal to sell and buy for adults.

Take a cigarette that was manufactured with rat poison in it. If it were sold and killed someone, then the mfg'er would be held liable, but probably not the Wawa who sold the pack, as it would be presumably impossible to know that the smokes were tainted.

On the other hand, imagine a cigarette that came to the distributor without any warnings on the package. Say the distributor got them cheaply from China or something and then sold them to the public without any of the warnings which the distributor KNEW were essential to the safety of the product.

Let's say a first time smoker gets the unlabled Chinese cigs and contracts lung cancer.

There is certainly a theoretical responsibility on the part of a party in the stream of product delivery to make sure that any safety issues of which they are aware are addressed before they push the product on it's way toward the end consumer.

In this manner, if NPS/Kee were responsible for any lack of warning or labeling or even design (assuming NPS/Kee were aware of the problem with the design), then NPS/Kee would be responsible for the damages which ensue directly from their negligence.

Depending on what state hosted the suit, the most responsible defendant may not be the one who pays the most. In Pa., a party that is one percent liable may pay 100% of the damages if all the other parties are incapable of contributing money.

Crazy, but they wrote it all down in a bunch of law books so we could keep it all straight.

Good luck,
D

[HP_Lovecraft]

Originally Posted by Mr. Furious

The guy who lost his wife is working to make sure that all of us are playing with safe equipment. If one life is saved by what this man did, then it's worth a slightly biased article in the Times. .

I understand what you are saying.

My point was that WAY BACK in 1990, someone died, and the industry did change, and since then all valves have had that safety vent to prevent the tanks from shooting off like rockets.

I've actually seen a few 7oz tanks shoot off like rockets. Every single one was made before 1990 (and all were Tippmann pin-valves).

The guy who lost his wife is commendable for wanting to make sure we are all playing with safe equipment, but I do not see what will change? The change already happened back in 1990.

The problem was not the equipment, but an incorrectly installed anti-siphon that accidentally bypassed that safety vent.

Back in the early 90s is when paintball masks also started becomming standardized. If a modern player modifies his masks so that it bypasses its safety features (ie removes facemask), and then gets hurt, I don't think that would require a change to the mask. The mask itself is already safe.

I sympathize with the man for his loss. I meant to imply that I think his LAWYERS were playing the "follow the money" game, and perhaps manipulating his emotions for there benefit

nick

[Drum]

Lawyers always follow the money game, unless they do not mind being poor or are already independently wealthy.

Just like doctors who cure cancer and astronauts and treasure divers and school crossing guards and police officers and airline pilots and even ministers and priests (assuming they are not gay pedophiles that is).

In fact, the pursuit of money is one of the things that unites us all as members of our culture.

One group that is NOT out there for the money?

Al Qeda terrorists...

That is one of the reasons that they MUST be stopped!

D.

[Schmitti]

I'm so glad I hadn't picked up my coffee, as planned, while reading that last one.

Thank you for the laugh Big D!

E

[RealtorTommy]

I'm all for improved safety....but starting with a false pretense doesn't sit well...

[SHAG]

hi,

People still use CO2 bottles?

Seriously, I would think the reason why NPS/Kee got it in the end was they were the final stop on the train. Catalina could have said we only supplied the bottles and recommended a torque spec. NPS acquired Tippmann style valves from another manufacturer. They could have been the ones to install the valves. Also it is possible that NPS never said a word about torque specs to the end user. You would think there would be a torque spec label on any bottle you buy stamped on or otherwise.

I find it funny though that you cannot get any of this info from manufacturers like Crossfire. If you need to pull a reg from a tank for Hydro, how do you know you are properly torquing the reg. Smart parts told my local dealer that you don't need loctite for the reg and bottle assemblies of the new Ion packages. He asked what should the torque spec, the tech on the phone didn't know what the spec was. He is going to loctite them in and make sure the bottles are snug when he sells them. How is he protected if SP or another manufacturer cannot provide the proper information to the service/user end? CO2 is one thing but HPA is another beast.

Also I was shock not to see the grooves cut into the reg like Guerrilla Air does on theirs. I thought that was going as a universal step with the manufacturers.

Short story. I recently got my PADI Open Water certification. When in class, in the pool, or on my check outs I was super careful with the tanks. My written work instructor asked me why I was really careful. I told him that I played paintball. I have a carbon fiber wrapped bottle with 4500 PSI that rest along my fore arm. I said I have a huge amount of respect for compressed air or compressed gases in general. He said uh huh and left me alone when it came to yelling at the others who had no respect for 2250 PSI tanks. My O/W certification instructor was the same way. Told her the same story. She had no problem with me being by any tanks. She said she wished she more people like me who have the same respect.

I hope this guy makes a difference in the Paintball community. I am really shocked how easily the Paintball community does when it comes to law suits and serious body injury in general. In my 12 years of playing I have seen only a few injuries with two being pretty painful.

later,
shaggy