mcarterbrown.com  

Paintball News The latest in paintball news brought to you by the oldest independent publication in paintball and the best paintball site on the web - The Paintball News and MCB

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-19-2014, 10:58 AM   #81 (permalink)
Rec Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Ohio

CCM Fan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmitti View Post
Which is fine... so long as you don't mix them on the field.

E
Why not?
PREDATOR 47 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2014, 11:13 AM   #82 (permalink)
Red=Moderator
 
Schmitti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Albany. NY

I've said this before and now that we can add Horizon's Low Impact model to the mix.... I think if you mix the two you add the potential for failures/dissatisfaction based on performance assumptions. Sure your experienced players will understand the handicap they put on themselves, but the younger players who imitate the experienced players and try to put the same handicap on themselves are going to realize that somethings not right, but they won't place blame on themselves and their choice to use a sub-par performer... they will blame the sub-par performer and will loudly speak of it's performance to all. And they will not play anymore.

Basically if the little kids try to play with the big kids, with their little kid toys they will get spanked and not like it and will take their ball and go home and not come back.

Having the two separate will allow things to move along and peace and harmony will be established and maintained.

I can just see it going to hell in a hand basket if you mix the two during regular game play.

Now if you want to allow it during Scenarios or other special game formats, I think it can work. But for walk on recreational play.... more angst than it's worth.

E
Schmitti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2014, 11:26 AM   #83 (permalink)
I Am The Admin
 
Painthappy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New Boston, NH
Send a message via AIM to Painthappy

Fan of EMR
CCM Fan
To me, 50 cal is just a ploy to sell new stuff to a younger market. The industry has pumped out cheap guns these past 10 years, and a 10 year old electro is still good and can hold it's own out there. Manufacturers have been hit with this reality of a flooded market with still good used guns that can compete with any new gun put out.

Add that to a lack in participation at paintball fields, and we have what we have now. People trying to come up with the next thing to forcefully spur sales.

We did the 50 cal physics back in 2009, and well... Nothing has changed.

I think schmitti is correct. You can't have 50 cal and 68 cal on the same field. 50 cal at 300 fps will not break beyond 90 feet. It doesn't have enough energy to break. 68 caliber will break at a much further distance.

But what about the children!!!???


If a field owner is that concerned they can turn down the velocity of any 68 caliber gun to ~ 225 fps. The FPE (foot pounds of energy) is on a 68 caliber paintball at 225 feet per second is almost identical to a 50 caliber paintball being shot at 300 fps.

They even travel the same distance and break at the same distance. That's how identical they are just by changing the velocity.

It's the same rule applied when shooting reballs. Just turn the gun down to 220 fps and you can shoot 68 caliber reballs at each other. Did that at an indoor place, was actually lots of fun. Didn't hurt at all.

As a field owner, that's a win win. If you're really that concerned, you can turn down the velocity for your rental guns for the kiddies and let them play amongst themselves.

If you need more rental guns for the big boys, you can just turn up the velocity. There is no need to carry another caliber of paint and be forced to stock up on another brand of paint and carry inventory.

There is then no need to carry inventory on another caliber gun that the big boys won't want to use because even at 300 fps, 50 caliber will not travel as far as 68 caliber or break out as far making it useless in a generic game.

So there you have it.

All the data is here: http://www.mcarterbrown.com/50ballistics/newfpe.htm
__________________
Pics- http://www.flickr.com/photos/paintballphotos/
Follow me on G+ For Non-Paintball Banter
google.com/+CarterBrown75
Sailing Blog - http://www.slightlycrewed.com
Painthappy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2014, 11:29 AM   #84 (permalink)
MCB Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmitti View Post
I've said this before and now that we can add Horizon's Low Impact model to the mix.... I think if you mix the two you add the potential for failures/dissatisfaction based on performance assumptions. Sure your experienced players will understand the handicap they put on themselves, but the younger players who imitate the experienced players and try to put the same handicap on themselves are going to realize that somethings not right, but they won't place blame on themselves and their choice to use a sub-par performer... they will blame the sub-par performer and will loudly speak of it's performance to all. And they will not play anymore.

Basically if the little kids try to play with the big kids, with their little kid toys they will get spanked and not like it and will take their ball and go home and not come back.

Having the two separate will allow things to move along and peace and harmony will be established and maintained.

I can just see it going to hell in a hand basket if you mix the two during regular game play.

Now if you want to allow it during Scenarios or other special game formats, I think it can work. But for walk on recreational play.... more angst than it's worth.

E
I think you are making a bigger deal out of it than it is. Yes, in your scenario, that might be true, but that's not all that much different than the new kid showing up with his Spyder playing against others who all have considerably better (more reliable) markers. Besides, I'm sure there will be plenty of players at the field, people like yourself, that will quickly explain the difference to new players and how with 50 caliber, they will handicap themselves.

Right now, any player at our field that plays in our 50 caliber game and expresses interest in buying their own gear and doing this paintball thing more often, I recommend first that they play in the 68 caliber game once first to make sure they actually still like playing when others are shooting 68 caliber balls at them and then if they do, they should then buy themselves a 68 caliber marker, not a 50 caliber marker.

Are there players that will buy 50 caliber markers before researching the pros and cons. Sure, just like there are players now that buy Spyders before doing any research. It's really hard to help those people at that point, other than to kindly explain the error of their ways.

Every sport has cheaper/inferior alternatives for people to buy and new participants buy that stuff all the time. I know lots of things I bought, mostly when I was younger and stupid, that I later kicked myself for buying. But that's life and part of maturing and learning from your mistakes.
Horizon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2014, 11:38 AM   #85 (permalink)
Rec Poster
 
2hits's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Michigan

Well, lets ask Horizon.

Why did you choose to buy .50 cal guns rather than just turn the velocity down on your existing .68 cal rentals? Are you planning on buying more .50 cal guns when the Tippmann FT50s come out?
2hits is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2014, 11:44 AM   #86 (permalink)
Moderating in Moderation
 
oldschool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: My own private Idaho

Fan of EMR
CCM Fan
Money, it's a hit
Don't give me that
Do goody good bull****


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy04c-6DEgE
__________________
Its all peaches & sunshine baby, peaches & sunshine..
Obsequious, purple, and clairvoyant
One of the two proud members left - D FLT
Politically, Socially and Aerodynamically Incorrect
Everything I have ever loved is immoral or illegal
Vir sapit qui pauca loquitur.
stewart potter common sense, elephant and duck tests
Force this into a gaussian distributed parabolic curve!
oldschool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2014, 11:56 AM   #87 (permalink)
Red=Moderator
 
Schmitti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Albany. NY

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2hits View Post
Well, lets ask Horizon.

Why did you choose to buy .50 cal guns rather than just turn the velocity down on your existing .68 cal rentals? Are you planning on buying more .50 cal guns when the Tippmann FT50s come out?

I'm going to be the arse.... $. There is your answer.
EDIT: Looks like oldschool beat me to it. He's used to being the arse, so that's okay

I'm going to guess that Horizon can buy .50 cal paint for less than he gets his .68 cal field paint, yet he sells them for the same price. There might be more reasons.

Can I see the benefits of low impact paintball. Sure.

Can I see it as a way to introduce new players to the sport. Sure.

Can I see it as a way to foster the growth of new players. Partially. You still need to allow the new players to grow on their own but also inter mix with the big boys so that they can really grow and experience our sport more fully.

I think the Spyder analogy that Horizon presented is false. I played just last month. I saw plenty of adults (in addition to kids) playing with spyders and tippmanns. There were far more entry level semi's on the field than there were Uber-electros. And even the non electro non entry level guns were only different by cosmetics or the addition of a high end hopper.

The real way to grow and maintain the sport is in how we treat new players. Chucking them into games with experienced league players where they will get hosed is not the way to do it. Presenting them with formats where they can enjoy themselves, feel positive about their skills, while growing their skills is the only way.

My Dad has played at least a half dozen times. More than a few people here have played along side my dad. It's been a while, but I'm sure they will tell you that in the right game format, he really enjoys himself. He's told me a couple times now that he would play again, but not at Castle. It's too intense, he feels under gunned and he does not enjoy himself. He has no problem being shot. He knows it will hurt. But a less intense format (even pump) is better suited to his skill and enjoyment level.

You have to find that level for every player that steps on the field. End of story.

I also agree with Carter... why buy all this extra gear that is required for a completely different format when the stuff we have works just fine and will allow a transition to regular play easier.

E
Schmitti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2014, 12:10 PM   #88 (permalink)
Red=Moderator
 
Schmitti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Albany. NY

I should also add that when I saw my dad after I had played in this last game he said if I went again that he wanted to go also. So... he has played in two .. TWO!!!! EMR Castle Games... didn't like them all that much , but so long as he can play at his comfort level he will play again.

We all have to listen to the younger players and offer them similar opportunities (and ask for their opinions) if desired.

E
Schmitti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2014, 12:41 PM   #89 (permalink)
Active Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Machesney park, IL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmitti View Post
I'm going to be the arse.... $. There is your answer.
EDIT: Looks like oldschool beat me to it. He's used to being the arse, so that's okay

I'm going to guess that Horizon can buy .50 cal paint for less than he gets his .68 cal field paint, yet he sells them for the same price. There might be more reasons.

Can I see the benefits of low impact paintball. Sure.

Can I see it as a way to introduce new players to the sport. Sure.

Can I see it as a way to foster the growth of new players. Partially. You still need to allow the new players to grow on their own but also inter mix with the big boys so that they can really grow and experience our sport more fully.

I think the Spyder analogy that Horizon presented is false. I played just last month. I saw plenty of adults (in addition to kids) playing with spyders and tippmanns. There were far more entry level semi's on the field than there were Uber-electros. And even the non electro non entry level guns were only different by cosmetics or the addition of a high end hopper.

The real way to grow and maintain the sport is in how we treat new players. Chucking them into games with experienced league players where they will get hosed is not the way to do it. Presenting them with formats where they can enjoy themselves, feel positive about their skills, while growing their skills is the only way.

My Dad has played at least a half dozen times. More than a few people here have played along side my dad. It's been a while, but I'm sure they will tell you that in the right game format, he really enjoys himself. He's told me a couple times now that he would play again, but not at Castle. It's too intense, he feels under gunned and he does not enjoy himself. He has no problem being shot. He knows it will hurt. But a less intense format (even pump) is better suited to his skill and enjoyment level.

You have to find that level for every player that steps on the field. End of story.

I also agree with Carter... why buy all this extra gear that is required for a completely different format when the stuff we have works just fine and will allow a transition to regular play easier.

E
If I may also be given some latitude at being a factual arse let me say this.

We DON'T NEED new equipment formats (.50), starter level guns, or (IMO) a .50 for "low velocity play".

WE NEED NEW PLAYERS.

Let me set the wayback to when I first started in 1986.

We had some of the same issues (such as rounds hitting hard/people fearing the pain , people with the "expensive/latest" guns and equipment, and new players with "starter" guns) but you know how we handled it?

We were nice and understanding to the new players.

We did not act like "oh you just have a spyder, you HAVE TO HAVE a XXX uber gun", we did not feel it was justified to phawn/overshoot/dominate newbies, send them off to be bait to find the other players (I personally hate this one) or CHEAT to win.

We treated new players like our little brothers/sisters/family and helped them into the sport. Be it by teaching them skills, letting them borrow your equipment, showing them how to use what they have effectively, giving them paint, not making fun of them, and letting them get the drop on you to build confidence.

In short sportsmanship. Something that has been badly slipping over the years.

To use an example back in the late 1990's I was playing walk on on fathers day when a mother brought a group of 4 young kids to play for the first time.

I took them under my wing and played 5 games with them. They were having a ball but mom could not afford more than half a case of paint and rental guns. I was tired and saw they really wanted to play.
So not only did I lend one of them (most responcible) my tricked out automag but just gave the mother the over 3/4 of a case of last fall paint (from an event I was at) I had. She tried to pay me but I told her it was older paint and I could not say some would not break in the barrel (It didn't). I told her let the kids have fun. They had a ball and I hope I encouraged new players.

If I may end with two basic thoughts

One get out of the mindset the equipment makes or breaks a player. If you think that I have some buddies (and I) who sometimes play with 20 year old )pumps that in the woods 6 (or more) out of 10 times will make a monkey out of someone with a uber paintchucker.


Second Basically IMO we have been in an arms race of equipment but not in getting the life blood of paintball, new players.

Sorry for my long rant

Scrounger

Last edited by scrounger; 03-19-2014 at 12:43 PM. Reason: missed something
scrounger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2014, 12:45 PM   #90 (permalink)
Red=Moderator
 
Schmitti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Albany. NY

scrounger ... I'm not sure if your post was directed at me. I've basically been saying the same thing as you for almost 10 years here. And longer at the field while playing.

I think if more people knew or wanted to follow Painthappy's lower velocity methodology rather than .50... or at least give it a try they may not see the need for their own field to buy new and separate/specialized equipment and paint.

E

Last edited by Schmitti; 03-19-2014 at 12:51 PM.
Schmitti is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  mcarterbrown.com » General » Paintball News

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO
© MCB Network LLC