General

[Eli]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

it is easy as pie to tell when someone is ramping. sorry, it jsut is. you can hear it and see it. maybe i've just been playing paintball for long enough and around enough illeagle guns to know it (back when E1s and classic timmies were the cheater guns ). from bounce to ramping - its fairly easy to see gun cheats. not to mention the new sound things the NPPL uses, those are easy to check poeple for ramping.

First, I call party foul for making your 'been playing paintball for so long' comment. Sounds to me like Tallen's been playing for almost as long as you've been alive. Second, perhaps you can give me a properly worded and spell-checked guide on how to catch people who ramp. I referee rec walk-ons at my local field and have a very difficult time discerning who's ramping, who's bursting, and who's really shooting that fast. I'm probably just not that savvy...

Originally Posted by Mr. Furious

A BPS limit and a ramping rule is the most level playing field you can get. If no one can shoot faster than anyone else the field is pretty darn level IMHO. Too much paint in the air makes for boring games and I'm all for a lower BPS cap but I think ramping is the safest, cheapest and least labor intensive way to keep BPS in check.

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

you keep saying this, but have yet to support it at all.

why do you think this? why should i think this?

because i dont. catching ramping is easy as pie. catching bounce is pretty easy too. no need to get into anyone guns, no need to make you own boards. the issue is a lack of will to stop cheating. thats the real problem. thats the reason ramping was legalized in the first place.

Well, you should put your money where your mouth is. You have yet to support your claims that "catching ramping is easy as pie".

[ceverhart]

The easy way to avoid cheating by illegal ramping modes is to have the event promotors provide the players with hoppers set to fed only at legal rates. I mean seriously, your gun can cycle 20+ a second but that does not mean jack if your hopper only feeds 14 bps.

[drg]

Originally Posted by ceverhart

The easy way to avoid cheating by illegal ramping modes is to have the event promotors provide the players with hoppers set to fed only at legal rates. I mean seriously, your gun can cycle 20+ a second but that does not mean jack if your hopper only feeds 14 bps.

This is a very good point. There has yet to be a hopper that has a truly controlled feed rate.

[Mr. Furious]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

you keep saying this, but have yet to support it at all.

why do you think this? why should i think this?

because i dont. catching ramping is easy as pie. catching bounce is pretty easy too. no need to get into anyone guns, no need to make you own boards. the issue is a lack of will to stop cheating. thats the real problem. thats the reason ramping was legalized in the first place.

Catching cheater boards is nearly impossible. So much so that they had to spend money to invent and operate a robot to check markers for "assisted" fire modes. And even then with a series of button pushes and trigger pulls the modes are turned on and off and without the proper sequence only shoot semi. My old team was sponsored by Smart Parts after I quit paintball. They got a bunch of the previous year's All American Shockers. The modes in those things were anything but "straight semi" and the ways in which the cheater modes were hidden was damn ingenious. The assisted modes were irregular, inconsistent and fast as hell(a lot faster than a human can shoot) but did not look or sound like ramping. It takes a lot of money, time and people to definitively catch a cheater board(at a pro level tourney where it matters) and you can't penalize someone for something you can't reproduce even if you KNOW they're doing it.

Ramping is ramping. It turns on after so many trigger pulls and shoots whatever the cap ROF is until you quit pulling the trigger. If someone points a BPS checker at you and you're faster than the cap, you get a penalty. One ref with one handheld piece of equipment during the game is not money, time or people intensive and that's why capped ramping is the safest, cheapest and least labor intensive way to keep BPS in check.

There, I said it again.

[b to the a to the k]

Originally Posted by Mr. Furious

Catching cheater boards is nearly impossible. So much so that they had to spend money to invent and operate a robot to check markers for "assisted" fire modes. And even then with a series of button pushes and trigger pulls the modes are turned on and off and without the proper sequence only shoot semi. My old team was sponsored by Smart Parts after I quit paintball. They got a bunch of the previous year's All American Shockers. The modes in those things were anything but "straight semi" and the ways in which the cheater modes were hidden was damn ingenious. The assisted modes were irregular, inconsistent and fast as hell(a lot faster than a human can shoot) but did not look or sound like ramping. It takes a lot of money, time and people to definitively catch a cheater board(at a pro level tourney where it matters) and you can't penalize someone for something you can't reproduce even if you KNOW they're doing it.

Ramping is ramping. It turns on after so many trigger pulls and shoots whatever the cap ROF is until you quit pulling the trigger. If someone points a BPS checker at you and you're faster than the cap, you get a penalty. One ref with one handheld piece of equipment during the game is not money, time or people intensive and that's why capped ramping is the safest, cheapest and least labor intensive way to keep BPS in check.

There, I said it again.

Amen. This is the only way. Tournaments should be ramp or pump.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by Eli

First, I call party foul for making your 'been playing paintball for so long' comment. Sounds to me like Tallen's been playing for almost as long as you've been alive. Second, perhaps you can give me a properly worded and spell-checked guide on how to catch people who ramp. I referee rec walk-ons at my local field and have a very difficult time discerning who's ramping, who's bursting, and who's really shooting that fast. I'm probably just not that savvy...




Well, you should put your money where your mouth is. You have yet to support your claims that "catching ramping is easy as pie".

have you tried listening?

back when bounce was common, like with the first gen timmies and the old diablo matrix's and such, you can simply hear it. bounce is typically more sparatic in terms of rate, but you can hear when the player is railing on the trigger, when he starts getting the bounce.

with ramping, its fairly easy to tell because its a steady rhythm. on semi (even the real fast guys) there is still quite a variation in the actual rate of the shots (not per second, but in each second). so ramping becomes clear easy enough becuase it evens out the speed to a constant rate over every second.

meh, anyone who is local and remembers FSL paintball should know a thing or two about cheating guns. that place was paid for with them. i learned all the tricks to ramping, bounce and "gansta" modes from the FSL factory team.

hidden modes and breakout modes and such are harder, but it think just watching NPPL games on the net and such, you can tell. again, its mostly a commitment issue. leagues just don't care enough. they would rather just change the rules than stand up the cheaters. if they could make it legal to wipe, they dang well would, because it sure is easier not having to watch players for that either! ramping (or what it actually is - turbo mode cerca 1997) is defiantly easier for the league to police, but that doesn't make it right. there is what it right, and what is easy. i guess im am to much of a purest when it comes to paintball, i want my action fast, clean and fun. none of this legalize cheating because we dont have the balls to stop anyone ...

[russc]

Ramping in its current incarnation can't really be called a form of cheating when it is used in its place. I agree that controlled ramping rules are better than unenforced semi-auto rules. It is not like SP's original Turbo mode. That mode simply allowed extra trigger events (mechanical bounce) to register and fire the gun, up to the maximum physical ROF. Ramping today follows relatively complex algorithms to achieve the mode after set shots fired, and at controllable BPS rates. It can be plainly seen that we can't trust players not to abuse the semi-only rules, and likewise we have seen that leagues have little interest in intervening. It's a solution to one problem, but opens doors to others. The biggest one being the fact that probably 99% of ramp capable guns use those capabilities outside of sanctioned ramping events.

I don't believe that ramping is subject to the runaway safety issue that you must consider with full-auto. What it has done, however, is increase the overall rate of fire. Many people don't even know they are on ramp. I've talked to generally experienced players who truly believed that they weren't ramping because Smart Parts called their mode "rebound."

Ramping is safe, insofar as it ideally ceases to fire when the trigger is held down, barring certain xball modes. However, ROF is a safety problem in itself. This should be addressed with loader and paint limits. We can all thank AGD for pushing that no-forcefeed boundary with the damn Warp Feed.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by russc

Ramping in its current incarnation can't really be called a form of cheating when it is used in its place. I agree that controlled ramping rules are better than unenforced semi-auto rules. It is not like SP's original Turbo mode. That mode simply allowed extra trigger events (mechanical bounce) to register and fire the gun, up to the maximum physical ROF. Ramping today follows relatively complex algorithms to achieve the mode after set shots fired, and at controllable BPS rates. It can be plainly seen that we can't trust players not to abuse the semi-only rules, and likewise we have seen that leagues have little interest in intervening. It's a solution to one problem, but opens doors to others. The biggest one being the fact that probably 99% of ramp capable guns use those capabilities outside of sanctioned ramping events.

I don't believe that ramping is subject to the runaway safety issue that you must consider with full-auto. What it has done, however, is increase the overall rate of fire. Many people don't even know they are on ramp. I've talked to generally experienced players who truly believed that they weren't ramping because Smart Parts called their mode "rebound."

Ramping is safe, insofar as it ideally ceases to fire when the trigger is held down, barring certain xball modes. However, ROF is a safety problem in itself. This should be addressed with loader and paint limits. We can all thank AGD for pushing that no-forcefeed boundary with the damn Warp Feed.

nope, todays ramping is classic turbo mode.

once you hit a certain BPS, the gun goes to full auto max speed. thats what turbo mode was.

the reason it is called ramping now is that the first ramping boards that were cheater boards. these boards took you BPS off the trigger and applied a parabolic ramp. you pull 3 it shoots 3, you pull 5 it shoots 6, you pull 10, it shoots 16, you pull 13 it shoots 20. they were hard to catch back then, before most poeple knew about them.

[Mr. Furious]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

have you tried listening?

Have you tried reading? Everyone here pretty much agrees that you can tell when an enhanced firing mode is in use. The problem lies in the way that the cheating modes are hidden when the marker is not in the players hands. If you can't take the gun away from the player and reproduce what you believe the cheating mode is there is absolutely no way to punish the player or the team. Just like in a murder trial; with no dead body there is no case. That is why I and others keep saying ramping is the best and only absolute way to control rate of fire. When you have no BPS cap, the cheaters will find a way to get dangerous and unfair BPS numbers. History shows us this.

Ramping is NOT cheating if you are using it in an event that allows it. Anything done within the rules is not cheating, it is simply playing by the rules. Just because you don't like it and think it takes the purity out of paintball doesn't make it cheating. If I think that autotriggers destroy the purity of pump guns and are the same as cheating but I play at a place that allows them, I either shut up about it, go somewhere else that has the same views of paintball purity that I hold or I join the arms race and put an autotrigger kit in, right?

[Dylan6-0]

This got interesting.....
Can you tell the the difference between some one that is shooting 3 shot burst, and ramp. Probably not because there almost the same thing. Can I hear when a gun is ramping, or bursting...that would be a yes, it sounds different then a semi gun shooting. I have had team mates that use the cheater modes, and I have played against people with them. It usually gets caught, and you get Screwed for points. Does it really give them that much of and advantage. All that stuff isn't actually that useful. I am sure if the people spent more time practicing and less messing with there cheater modes, they would be better.