General

[secretweaponevan]

Originally Posted by Mr. Furious

2. Ramping for tournaments is the ONLY way to keep cheaters from shooting insanely fast.

When Manike was at fall castle, he was expaining a video camera he has that makes it easy to count trigger pulls by watching someone's fingers.

He also explained that there are microchips (cheater chips) out there that can be hidden anywhere along the circuit to circumvent ramping bps caps.

I still feel that true-semi-only would make it much easier to catch cheaters, help with overshooting problems, make higher ROF a skill, and help the sport to grow from the ground up again. The paint companies wouldn't be too happy, but I think it would be good for the sport.

My $.02

[DCB]

I remember watch a old AGD video where a guy was shooting a Mag and could hit 10 bps...... not bad for a single trigger Mag.

I like the idea of keeping it simple.

Peace

[JKR]

Originally Posted by Mr. Furious

7. The comment about putting tourney guns on the rec field is a pretty silly notion because the reason pro sports exist is to sell stuff. When you golf, you buy the clubs the pro's use. When you bowl you buy the ball the pro's use. When you fish you buy the gear the pro's use. When you shoot competitively or hunt seriously you buy the guns the pro's use. Why the heck is it so hard for people to understand that a paintball gun is just a paintball gun and the guy using it is what determines the things it does? Just like the golf clubs, bowling balls and etc. the player is the controlling factor and only he can be blamed or praised for the actions of the sporting good.

Your argument does not hold up...

Most sports, including those that you mention, rely on the skill of the participant, not technology. Most sports require very minimal equipment to participate.

When you start talking sports that rely heavily on technology then you start seeing limits placed on that technology. For instance, you wouldn't see Formula 1 cars racing at a NASCAR race nor would you see 80cc dirt bikes racing in the 250cc class.

Let's face it, paintball relies on some skill, a little luck, and your equipment - it has since day one. Since the beginning, it has been about who can get the faster, more consistent and better performing equipment. When you place limits in the equipment and put everyone on a level playing field, then you start seeing better competition IMHO.

[Mr. Furious]

Originally Posted by JKR

Your argument does not hold up...

Most sports, including those that you mention, rely on the skill of the participant, not technology. Most sports require very minimal equipment to participate.

When you start talking sports that rely heavily on technology then you start seeing limits placed on that technology. For instance, you wouldn't see Formula 1 cars racing at a NASCAR race nor would you see 80cc dirt bikes racing in the 250cc class.

Let's face it, paintball relies on some skill, a little luck, and your equipment - it has since day one. Since the beginning, it has been about who can get the faster, more consistent and better performing equipment. When you place limits in the equipment and put everyone on a level playing field, then you start seeing better competition IMHO.

My argument was that people want to use the best equipment they can afford even though it is rarely necessary due to the skill level of a weekend player. Professional participants of any sport are given sponsorships so regular people buy the same things they use.

Formula one and NASCAR there are fast cars and slow cars and the governing bodies do nothing to make sure all the cars go the same speed. If NASCAR put a speed limit on racecars we'd really see who could drive and who couldn't. Ramping allows the paintball governing body to put a speed limit on BPS that is concrete and irrefutable and that is unique to paintball. No other sport says how hard a player can hit a ball, how fast they can run, how fast or far they can throw.

A BPS limit and a ramping rule is the most level playing field you can get. If no one can shoot faster than anyone else the field is pretty darn level IMHO. Too much paint in the air makes for boring games and I'm all for a lower BPS cap but I think ramping is the safest, cheapest and least labor intensive way to keep BPS in check.

Finally, since we're talking about disparity in equipment on the rec field, if you have a group of pump players and one has an autotrigger does he have an unfair advantage or is that OK? How about if everyone is using gravity fed M98's but one guy has a Revolution? You're never going to have a level playing field at a rec game. As long as no one is abusing their firepower there is no reason that a $2000 gun can't play with an $89 gun and still allow everyone to have a good time.

I play with a stock mechanical cocker and get just as many eliminations(or more) as I do when I play with any given uber gun. How could that be? I'm outclassed by all the "tourney guns" polluting the rec field and yet still manage to overcome my firepower deficit and have a big impact on almost every game. It's all about the player and not the equipment.

[Mr. Furious]

Originally Posted by secretweaponevan

When Manike was at fall castle, he was expaining a video camera he has that makes it easy to count trigger pulls by watching someone's fingers.

He also explained that there are microchips (cheater chips) out there that can be hidden anywhere along the circuit to circumvent ramping bps caps.

I still feel that true-semi-only would make it much easier to catch cheaters, help with overshooting problems, make higher ROF a skill, and help the sport to grow from the ground up again. The paint companies wouldn't be too happy, but I think it would be good for the sport.

My $.02

As I posted above, you can catch cheater boards but it's labor intensive and labor costs time and money. Who's going to analyze the video to count trigger pulls vs. balls fired? How about when the players start wearing hunting mittens to cover the trigger to make counting impossible(do you think they wouldn't? )?

Cheater boards will always be present but with ramping and a BPS cap there is an absolute BPS limit. If they point the counter at you and you're above the limit you get the penalty. In a semi game you could say "I'm just that good sometimes." and there would be little they could do about it.

The only way to prevent cheater boards if you don't have a capped ramping rule is to use handout boards that are the property of the series and given to each player at the begining of the tourney and confiscated at the end. But now we have the problem of cost, time and labor rearing it's head again.

I thing capped ramping is awesome for safety and fairness. I just think 15 BPS and even 13.33 is too fast.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by Mr. Furious

I'm all for a lower BPS cap but I think ramping is the safest, cheapest and least labor intensive way to keep BPS in check.

you keep saying this, but have yet to support it at all.

why do you think this? why should i think this?

because i dont. catching ramping is easy as pie. catching bounce is pretty easy too. no need to get into anyone guns, no need to make you own boards. the issue is a lack of will to stop cheating. thats the real problem. thats the reason ramping was legalized in the first place.

[pinesftw]

This thread made me imagine the craziest thing!

AGG Kiddies using pumps and Thinking one balling is better than using a whole hopper to tag someone !

OK, Back to topic. I'm glad they chose this rule. that means 2 less bruises, that is if you're hit by the other 11. (It once happened that an AGGlet shot me for a full second at 17bps while I was going over to the deadbox.

[Tallen702]

Originally Posted by JKR

Your assertion that the tournament guys "who do enjoy the game get on with playing it" implies a couple of things I would like to address.

First, paintball doesn't reside in a vacuum. Those tourney guys take their gear to play walkon, and in some cases without regard for who they are playing against. So when you make 'guns for tourney use that have insane ROF you are making recreational 'guns whether you intend to or not. If the NPPL and the leagues can't regulate the equipment to meet their guidelines, you think John Doe, the local field owner, can do it?! Hogwash...

Living in a tournament team heavy area, I can tell you that most true tournament players don't play with the walk-ons on the weekend. They stick to the speedball fields and get their practice in. Catching your average tournament player on a wooded field is a rare thing. As for ramping on the rec-field having an insane ROF, what about Tippmann R/Ts? are you going to scream about how unfair they are as well? I remember when they came out and how people griped that they were "too fast" but The only thing I every hear anyone caution about them these days is that having one in your marker means you can't use it in a tournament. That's it. A properly tuned R/T can easily hit 15bps with a high-flow banjo-bolt and tubing and trust me when I say that most R/T toting internet users know this and have modified their markers accordingly. Why gripe about "pros" getting onto the woodsball field when the little kid with the R/T is every bit as capable of getting on the field and spraying some paint.

Secondly, you imply by your comment "the game" is what you deem is enjoyable - tourney play. The current state of "the game" is what the majority of the playing public participates in. Guess what, that is weekend recreational walkon play. If you abandon the core of your game to satisfy the minority then you ultimately are dooming yourself. You must realize that this business of paintball relies on the recreational public. Without them, the money dries up and the tournaments cease. Keep getting little Johnny, the fourteen old renter, bruised and abused long enough and mom and dad pull the plug.

I imply no such thing. I said if you like stock-class, go play it. I didn't imply that the tournament scene is the only "game" out there. You have many different forms of paintball. Scenario/Mil-sim, Rec, Stock/open class, tournament/speedball. I don't agree with mil-sim. As a player and a person with a vested interest in the industry for quite some time, I hate the militaristic stigma that the sport is always pegged with, but you don't see me spouting off in public forums about how bolt-on cosmetic mods are hurting the sport and scaring off potential player's mothers who won't let their kids even get a chance to play the game because of the "violent" aspect that is only heightened by the mil-sim groups and their talks of "kills" and whatnot. I digress...

As far as complaining old farts - if you had as much playing time as many of us around here, you might appreciate the game of yesteryear. I don't know you and haven't studied your posts but you come across as one of those aggro kids you mentioned.

I've been playing this sport for over 15 years now and had been drooling over catalogs and magazines for 5 more years prior to that. I do appreciate the game of yesteryear, but you know what? Change happens and all the griping about "electros ruin the sport" and "everything should go back to the way it was" is nothing more than the mutterings of people who can't adapt. I'm not saying that there's no reason to play stock class or mech anymore, but there certainly isn't any reason to gripe about a bps cap that doesn't even affect you if you aren't playing in the league. Boards aren't capped at a particular BPS, just their ramping modes. Any board worth owning has enough variable parameters to open it up to unlimited cps. Do you honestly think that putting a lower bps cap in place means that little johnny aggro isn't going to just unlock his bps cap and still rip on people out on the field?

I love this sport for everything it has given me and everything it offers. But rather than try to restrain it to what it was 5 years ago, let alone 10 years ago, I embrace every new technology that comes down the road because innovation is the only way you keep things from getting stagnant. I've played every kind of tournament you can imagine, and still do. I played in woods tournaments in high school, college tournaments, NPPL, Skyball, the IAO and numerous local tournaments since. I've never had more fun than I do now on a field against 5 other guys with so much paint flying they have to pull out leaf blowers between matches to clear away the bounces. I like my style of game, there are plenty of other styles out there. But the 13bps cap won't translate to slower rates on the field in a situation where the parameters on boards can be so easily changed.

[pizzaluvr]

Originally Posted by pinesftw

This thread made me imagine the craziest thing!

AGG Kiddies using pumps and Thinking one balling is better than using a whole hopper to tag someone !

OK, Back to topic. I'm glad they chose this rule. that means 2 less bruises, that is if you're hit by the other 11. (It once happened that an AGGlet shot me for a full second at 17bps while I was going over to the deadbox.

Seriously? That's about the time it took you to read this post.

[drg]

Originally Posted by JKR

Azzy, I agree with your eariler post - anything above 12 bps is either mechanical or software assited. I don't care about any claims to the contrary - a human just can't maintain a trigger pull that fast.

Anyone who claims otherwise, I want to see your video footage proving you are going to 17 bps or a steady 15 bps on a mechanical 'gun (edit - add: or semi only electro) without assistance of any kind.

I call shens...

12 isn't too hard honestly. 14+ is when it starts getting harder (two fingers). Very very few can pull over 16 legitimately.

This is why my initial post was regarding 13bps being doable by many, if not the majority, of players. The electronics in the case of people who can pull 14-15 or more legitimately will actually slow them down and it will be noticeable. 15bps, the current de facto cap, is about the point at which it's a little faster than most people can maintain easily and about the most even fast triggermen can pull legitimately. After that you're going so fast it's hard to tell whether you might be actually pulling 16-17 but being limited to 15.