General

[Horizon]

I agree with you on the Tippmann part. If it was me, I would probably have done the exact same thing with the exception of giving the owners of equipment with cyclone feed suystems a one yeare grace period (still watch them extra carfully like they are for that year). That way, those players can either choose to play somewhere else, or sell their Tippy's and get something else. In 2009, they wouldn't be allowed either. Markers that shoot that fast shouldn't be on rec. fields, in my opinion as a field owner.

I know there are lots of field owners sitting in the wings on this one to see how it plays out. I know many fieldowners have felt somewhat powerless in the past, swearing under thier breath at the manufacturers in the industry for getting us to this point, but very little that they felt they could do. This is a fairly drastic step, no argument. The industry has screwed a lot of us recreational field owners over (at least that's the way many of us feel). Some of us are fighting back. If more fields adopt these kind of drastic equipment restrictions, then manufacturers will have to rethink what the market really should have to be healthy.

From what I've heard from the management and regular players at DZ, DZ has always been very good about seperating players and watching players real close, as many fields do but the area is still lacking very much in attracting new recreational players. I'm not sure if this will work for them, but I do know that new players won't feel nearly as intimidated with strings of 4 or 5 balls at 12 bps rather than strings of 20 plus balls at 15 or more bps. Also, this type of equipment restriction will keep many players that just cannot, or refuse to, abide by it, away. I am quite sure this is what they are counting on. I know as a field owner, that's exactly my philosophy. I would much rather keep the guys that just have to shoot high rates of fire away, in order to keep attracting new players and expanding my business. And if recreational paintball can expand, than that's good for the entire industry.

[SEKTape]

Mr. Furious:

The difficulty that the A5 and X7 pose is that they're designed to be used in the woods or on a recreational field. Tippmann isn't marketing these guns to the tourney players, because that's not their niche. They're trying to sell them to recreational players and woodsball players. Hence, the problem of the Cyclone. I'll reiterate that I don't see allowing Cyclone fed guns as being a problem. For one, they're much easier to watch/regulate than the combination of an electronic gun and a force fed hopper. More importantly, I don't think that this is going to have a significant effect on the average player's choice of gun. If you're a tournament-esque player, is it really worth it to buy a different gun just to go to the rec field and shoot at rental players? I don't really see that happening. If you're a rec player and you want an A5, that's fine, just don't overshoot anybody with it. Galen has never said that this ruling is intended to be a substitute for good old-fashioned common sense. Players can still be reprimanded for overshooting.

Next, the ROF issue. I'll agree that the loader is not solely responsible for the 14BPS, but it's the combination of the loader, gun and player. The loader is still an integral part of the equation. Sure you can still get up to a fairly high ROF in shorter bursts, but that's just the thing: they're shorter. The original press release explicitly states that one of the intentions of this rule is to prevent players from staying behind one bunker and hosing the field. It's desired to encourage movement and an increase in skill.

Let's talk player perception. It's all about fairness in this category. As a player, I would be more offended if a field started to tell certain players that they were trusted enough to use force fed hoppers, and others that they weren't. That type of favoritism will always be met with more criticism than a blanket ruling. Sure, there will be players would would expect to be told not to use their force fed hoppers, but there would be just as many (if not more) that would not expect it and see themselves as targeted. This has a profound impact on a person's willingness to acceptsome sort of ruling. If a rule is applied universally, the average person will be more likely to comply than if they feel singled out. I'll point out, as Galen did, that the use of Cyclones/RTs is much easier to regulate than the electro/loader combination. This isn't about whether or not individual players are trusted, it's about making sure that no one feels targeted, and no one's playing experience is harmed.

Let's look at your examples. Violating a cart path rule at a golf course is black and white. You did it or you didn't. Overshooting is a relative thing. Overshooting to you may be different than overshooting to me, and certainly different from a rental player. All it takes is one bad experience to keep a person from coming back.

Speed limits are regulated exactly because of high speed collisions. You claim that they're not regulated at "low mph", but this just proves my point on the relativity of the issue. What one person considers to be low mph, may seem like high mph to another.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying the ruling is perfect. However, I do see it as a far superior option than the status quo. There's essentially no reason for rec games to come with all of the extra potential problems attached. Not when DZ has two airball fields and a speedball field for the tournament players to play on.

Horizon:

The idea of a grace period might or might not work, I like to think that simply regulating the use of Cyclones will be infinitely preferable to turning people away simply because of the equipment they use.

The arms race has been bad for paintball, I wholeheartedly agree. But, it's happened, we're here now, and something has to be done. This type of move allows for the fast players to play fast without having any effect on the recreational or rental players.

DZ has always done a superb job of conducting games, and keeping players in fair groups, and this idea is meant to be a continuation of that. The hope is that it will bring in more players, and that they won't be scared off by fast guns before they can even get started.

[Chappy]

Originally Posted by SEKTape

Mr. Furious:

The difficulty that the A5 and X7 pose is that they're designed to be used in the woods or on a recreational field. Tippmann isn't marketing these guns to the tourney players, because that's not their niche. They're trying to sell them to recreational players and woodsball players. Hence, the problem of the Cyclone. I'll reiterate that I don't see allowing Cyclone fed guns as being a problem. For one, they're much easier to watch/regulate than the combination of an electronic gun and a force fed hopper. More importantly, I don't think that this is going to have a significant effect on the average player's choice of gun. If you're a tournament-esque player, is it really worth it to buy a different gun just to go to the rec field and shoot at rental players? I don't really see that happening. If you're a rec player and you want an A5, that's fine, just don't overshoot anybody with it.

So no forcefed hoppers , but a5's are fine as long as the owner won't overshoot? Do you realize how hypocritical that sounds? And again, what about aggitated hoppers on mechanical guns? Not allowed by this new ruling. An a5 can outshoot my z with a revvy, but the a5 is allowed and my revvy on a mech semi is not? I reiterate, that's ridiculous.

[SEKTape]

Originally Posted by Chappy

So no forcefed hoppers , but a5's are fine as long as the owner won't overshoot? Do you realize how hypocritical that sounds? And again, what about aggitated hoppers on mechanical guns? Not allowed by this new ruling. An a5 can outshoot my z with a revvy, but the a5 is allowed and my revvy on a mech semi is not? I reiterate, that's ridiculous.

I mentioned before, and will say again, that the rule is not perfect, but that it's suitable for its intended purpose. An A5 cannot be made to utilize any other type of loader, so it's stuck with the Cyclone. It can, however, be adjusted so that it won't feed at excessive speeds. It seems quite unreasonable to ask an individual to buy an entirely new gun so that they can come and play. This is quite different from loaning a gravity fed hopper to a player. The point of this rule is to attract players, and telling them that they have to buy new equipment is not the way to do that. I said earlier that A5 users will still be subject to the same scrutiny (if not more) as other players regarding overshooting. This rule still doesn't apply to the tournament fields, and there will still be one weekend a month when the rec fields will be open to all kinds of feeding systems.

[Frink]

DZ could force A5 owners to use 50 rd Tac hoppers instead of the stock 200 round. They're relatively cheap and no point if your shooting 8 bps (what e-grip A5's are limited to there), if you have to reload every 7 seconds.

Just a thought.

[Azzy]

Thats easy, dont let them use the guns.

We have days where we tell walkon players that they are more than welcome to play, but they cant use their wizbang guns, and if they want, we will give them a free rental. We tell them that we have instances of overshooting, and that even if they are not those who have done it in the past, its just something that we decided. If they still make a fuss, then "dont let the door hit you where the good lord split ya."

Havent had a major problem. We've told people that if we hear them going off with and RT, we will pull them. Same as the guys with ramping, we will pull them. Ive done it to people on my own team when playing, called for a ref to pull them from a game. Buisness isnt there for the group of 20 or so regulars each weekend, its for the renters who will come every month or so.. thats where we get the other 50 that show up to play.

[Mr. Furious]

Originally Posted by SEKTape

Mr. Furious:

The difficulty that the A5 and X7 pose is that they're designed to be used in the woods or on a recreational field. Tippmann isn't marketing these guns to the tourney players, because that's not their niche. They're trying to sell them to recreational players and woodsball players. Hence, the problem of the Cyclone. I'll reiterate that I don't see allowing Cyclone fed guns as being a problem. For one, they're much easier to watch/regulate than the combination of an electronic gun and a force fed hopper. More importantly, I don't think that this is going to have a significant effect on the average player's choice of gun. If you're a tournament-esque player, is it really worth it to buy a different gun just to go to the rec field and shoot at rental players? I don't really see that happening. If you're a rec player and you want an A5, that's fine, just don't overshoot anybody with it. Galen has never said that this ruling is intended to be a substitute for good old-fashioned common sense. Players can still be reprimanded for overshooting.

Next, the ROF issue. I'll agree that the loader is not solely responsible for the 14BPS, but it's the combination of the loader, gun and player. The loader is still an integral part of the equation. Sure you can still get up to a fairly high ROF in shorter bursts, but that's just the thing: they're shorter. The original press release explicitly states that one of the intentions of this rule is to prevent players from staying behind one bunker and hosing the field. It's desired to encourage movement and an increase in skill.

Firs off, let me start by saying that a paintball gun is a paintball gun and whether it's a $60 Walmart special or a $1500 DM8 they all have the potential to abuse someone on the paintball field if the guy holding it chooses to do so. Stereotyping a player based on the gun he carries is ridiculous but unfortunately it's the basis of most of these discussions. A paintball gun is a hunk of metal and has no control over whether it is used responsibly or not. It's like trying to blame the hammer for your smashed thumb. The hammer was an unwilling participant in the thumb smashing and you have no one to blame but yourself.

I think it's amazing that so many people think Tippmann owners are all angels that deserve an exemption from this rule and anyone who shoots an electro is evil and only out to overshoot noobies and hurt people. That's like saying a guy that rides a motorcycle is a Hell's Angel that sells crystal meth simply based on his choice of transportation.

Let me tell you what I've personally experienced from people shooting A5's: I have been overshot on several occassions, I have been shot point blank in clear violation of field rules(I can send you a picture of the scar if you'd like), I have been shot after clearly signalling I was out on several occassions. All by a few nice guys with Tippmanns. The terrible, evil, rotten, no-goods shooting tourney guns have NEVER overshot me on the rec field or even when I'm helping out with team practice and ramping is allowed. So if we're going to blame paintball's problems on a certain group of players and certain types of guns from my point of view the players are the Tippmann owners and the guns are the Tippmann's.

Explain to me how it's "much easier to regulate" a cyclone fed gun than an electro with a forcefeed hopper. You can't regulate a human's finger if they don't want it regulated. If someone is going to overshoot someone there is no prevention, there is only cleaning up the mess in the aftermath by yelling at the overshooter and making nice-nice with the guy that got overshot.

If I'm a rec player with an A5 it's OK to just tell me not to overshoot anyone because Tippmann owners are all good folks with good attitudes who want everyone to have fun and would never do anything to hurt another player or hurt the sport of paintball. But if I'm a guy with a tourney type gun(which is total bulls**t BTW because the Tippmann Effect never had a problem playing with Tippmanns in big tourneys IIRC) I can't just be told not to overshoot anyone because I'm obviously driven by hate, have no self control and want to make sure everyone at the field has a miserable time because I want to mow muppets and light up noobies to show how much better I am with my big, fancy tourney gun. Does any of that sound reasonable or realistic to you? No it doesn't but that's exactly what you're saying in a much less direct way.

Why would you stereotype and blame problems on someone you never met based simply on the hardware they carry onto the field? Everybody likes to play with a certain type of gun. If I want to shoot an Ego I should be allowed. If I want to shoot a $1000 pump I should be allowed. What I shouldn't be allowed to do is abuse anyone on the paintball field regardless of what type of gun I'm using.

This is not an equipment issue, this is a player issue. Limiting equipment will just move the problems to a different facet of the game and the next problem they create may not be so easily remedied with the bandaid of limiting equipment.

IMHO the overshooting rules can be just as black and white as the golf course rules. If you break more than 2 balls on anyone it's overshooting. Plain and simple. Base the penalties on the number of offences and refusal to follow the rules and escalate as necessary until the player is fixed or is banned from the field. That's what the ref's are for.

One thing I forgot to mention in my cars and MPH analogy was that the cars are not governed because MOST of the people obey the law and drive with safety in mind MOST of the time. The same goes for MOST of the players in paintball regardless of what type of gun they are using. A few bad apples have spoiled high ROF capable guns in the eyes of the paintball industry but apparently no one in the industry has the guts to step up and get rid of those bad apples before they spoil the whole damn bunch.

[SEKTape]

Well, apparently I'm now the sole defender of the policy, so let's start at the top...

Frink:

Telling guys with Cyclone feeds to use tac hoppers doesn't do anything to stop the Cyclone itself from functioning. So, the ROF will still be the same. Plus, this is the equivalent of punishing an individual based on the gun they use, the exact opposite of the rule's intent. The idea is that people should be allowed to use the equipment they currently own without having to purchase anything else.

Azzy:

The entire policy stems from a lack of desire to tell people that they can't use their equipment. You're following a parallel train of thought, but you tell people they can't use their guns instead of their hoppers. The concept that DZ has is that an individual can still use their electronic gun and that the gravity hopper will prevent them from hosing the lanes and overshooting individuals. This way, they don't have to purchase new equipment, and the field isn't giving out free rentals; just loaning gravity fed hoppers when the players don't have them.

Mr. Furious:

I've certainly never contended that you can't shoot people up with any type of gun, but that's hardly the issue here. It's not stereotyping to say that players who shoot fast guns overshoot players more often, it's a numbers game. Everything else being equal, the player who shoots more balls is more likely to hit their target. For all your talk about stereotyping, you seem to be more guilty of this than anyone else. I've qualified all of my statements about the Cyclone rule by saying that it isn't meant to be a substitute for common sense. It's very possible that someone can overshoot someone else with a Tippmann (or any other gun for that matter), and that action will be handled accordingly. The issue is whether or not that possibility justifies telling the Tippmann owner that they have to purchase an entirely new gun. The stakes here are substantially lower for other players, who need only throw their force fed hopper into their bag and borrow a gravity fed loader from the field. When you start to discuss telling a player they can't play at all because of the gun they use, then it's important to re-assess your judgment.

It seems, however, that this whole ordeal has struck a sore spot with you. Ever since Tippmanns have entered the discussion, you've been opposed to the whole concept. It sounds from that last story like you had some really traumatizing experience involving a Cyclone feed. While I empathize, it's something that you're going to have to get over eventually. You're becoming the thing you oppose by characterizing Tippmann owners as morally questionable.

I stand by my statement that an A5 is easier to regulate than an electronic gun. To begin with, the RT and Cyclone can both be turned down by adjusting the air flow to them, and that is something that is very hard to change on the field. Electronics, on the other hand, are much easier to change. In many cases, it can literally be done with the push of a button.

Rest assured that I'm not stereotyping anyone. I've seen all different sorts of players in my time associated with the sport. This rule has nothing to do with trying to undercut any particular type of player, which is precisely the principle behind allowing A5s. It's also not about giving anyone a way to get around the rules, which is why A5s will be turned down. The idea is to bring down the amount of hosing that occurs on the rec fields.

Now let's talk overshooting. I see your story changing somewhat here. On page three of this very thread, you claim that breaking more than three balls on a player is overshooting, whereas you now claim that breaking two is overshooting. I'm certainly not going to defend overshooting, because that's dumb, but it's not nearly as black and white as you'd like it to be. It doesn't seem very hard to imagine a scenario where I'm shooting at you from a reasonable distance and you are hit by a second ball that left my gun before the first one hit you; this can be achieved even at a relatively low rate of fire. Under your definition, this would be defined as overshooting. This is why lobbying for the use of common sense (as I have done and will continue to do) seems like the better option.

The whole car analogy definitely hurts your case. Highways and roads often have seperate lanes for people who want to drive slower and people who want to drive faster. This is the same thing on a paintball field. If you want to shoot fast, there's a speedball field and two airball fields. If you want to play recball, then this restriction is what you'll have to abide by.

[Horizon]

As a field owner, for me it's not really an overshooting issue. Refs can deal with overshooters, much like Mr. Furious is saying. For me the issue is the amount of paintballs in the air; the amount of paintballs hitting the bunker the new or ocassional player is hiding behind; the amount of paint whizzing over his head just above the bunker keeping him/her from doing anything (mostly keeping them from having fun). If I can control that and keep the amount of paintballs in the air at a reasonable level, than my field will be (is) more successful.

Mr. Furious is right, a player can be overshot with a stock 98 and a gravity feed hopper. Refs will always have to be on top of that. I think you guys are making this out to be solely about overshooting players. I don't believe it is. It's about creating an environment that is more friendly and will attract/keep more players involved in paintball. At least that's what I try to create at our field and it seems to work.

Mr. Furious, I agree with your assessment of the Tippmannn owners. There are many that play rec paintball that are just as bad or worse than poor sported tourney players. If it was me and I was incorporating this rule at my field, I would be phasing the Cyclone feeds out. I understand from a business point, where they would be treated differently than other markers that can be relatively easily converted to a gravity feed hopper by pulling off the electronic hopper. It's one thing to tell someone from one day to the other that they will have to use a different hopper if they want to play. It's a little different to tell them they can't use their marker at all. That's why I would give them a year (one season) to sell their Tippy if they need to and pick up something else. It's not a perfect solution, but I think is somewhat reasonable.

I also understand that people are all different and there are all sorts of playing styles and equipment choices. I understand that you want to lay ropes with your Ego (or whatever you shoot) at times. That's what you enjoy. And that's OK. But as a fieldowner that is running a business, I can choose what kind of play I want at my field. And if I don't want Ego owners to lay ropes of paint, than I can do whatever I feel is necessary to stop that from happening. As a player, you have a choice of choosing where you want to play and how you want to play.

[Mr. Furious]

Originally Posted by SEKTape

Well, apparently I'm now the sole defender of the policy, so let's start at the top...

Mr. Furious:

I've certainly never contended that you can't shoot people up with any type of gun, but that's hardly the issue here. It's not stereotyping to say that players who shoot fast guns overshoot players more often, it's a numbers game. Everything else being equal, the player who shoots more balls is more likely to hit their target. For all your talk about stereotyping, you seem to be more guilty of this than anyone else. I've qualified all of my statements about the Cyclone rule by saying that it isn't meant to be a substitute for common sense. It's very possible that someone can overshoot someone else with a Tippmann (or any other gun for that matter), and that action will be handled accordingly. The issue is whether or not that possibility justifies telling the Tippmann owner that they have to purchase an entirely new gun. The stakes here are substantially lower for other players, who need only throw their force fed hopper into their bag and borrow a gravity fed loader from the field. When you start to discuss telling a player they can't play at all because of the gun they use, then it's important to re-assess your judgment.

It seems, however, that this whole ordeal has struck a sore spot with you. Ever since Tippmanns have entered the discussion, you've been opposed to the whole concept. It sounds from that last story like you had some really traumatizing experience involving a Cyclone feed. While I empathize, it's something that you're going to have to get over eventually. You're becoming the thing you oppose by characterizing Tippmann owners as morally questionable.

I stand by my statement that an A5 is easier to regulate than an electronic gun. To begin with, the RT and Cyclone can both be turned down by adjusting the air flow to them, and that is something that is very hard to change on the field. Electronics, on the other hand, are much easier to change. In many cases, it can literally be done with the push of a button.

Rest assured that I'm not stereotyping anyone. I've seen all different sorts of players in my time associated with the sport. This rule has nothing to do with trying to undercut any particular type of player, which is precisely the principle behind allowing A5s. It's also not about giving anyone a way to get around the rules, which is why A5s will be turned down. The idea is to bring down the amount of hosing that occurs on the rec fields.

Now let's talk overshooting. I see your story changing somewhat here. On page three of this very thread, you claim that breaking more than three balls on a player is overshooting, whereas you now claim that breaking two is overshooting. I'm certainly not going to defend overshooting, because that's dumb, but it's not nearly as black and white as you'd like it to be. It doesn't seem very hard to imagine a scenario where I'm shooting at you from a reasonable distance and you are hit by a second ball that left my gun before the first one hit you; this can be achieved even at a relatively low rate of fire. Under your definition, this would be defined as overshooting. This is why lobbying for the use of common sense (as I have done and will continue to do) seems like the better option.

The whole car analogy definitely hurts your case. Highways and roads often have seperate lanes for people who want to drive slower and people who want to drive faster. This is the same thing on a paintball field. If you want to shoot fast, there's a speedball field and two airball fields. If you want to play recball, then this restriction is what you'll have to abide by.

I think your injecting a little more drama into this than I've provided to support your case that I'm a crazy electro defender. I'm simply stating my position and using examples or analogies to support it.

I've only been turning things around and beating up on Tippmanns and their owners to prove the point that singling out a type of gun and the player who carries it is stupid and it's discriminatory regardless of whether your talking about a guy with a DM8 or a guy with an A5. I have contended all along that this is a player problem and an equipment problem and there is no way you will convince me otherwise. Paintball is all about safety and we are up to our ears in rules that we are all expected to follow but yet we can't be trusted to follow a simple rule about breaking "X" amount of balls on a player. That seems wrong to me. If I'm too stupid to keep from overshooting someone then I sure as hell shouldn't be allowed around other people with a device that has the potential to cause great harm to someone.

As far as the number of balls it takes for someone to be overshot I was simply stating numbers to make the point that the rule can be black and white. 2 balls, 3 balls, who cares how many broken balls it takes because the field owner can determine what that number is and make the rule be enforced at that number. Don't try to split hairs and catch me contradicting myself or changing my story because I'm speaking in generalities to make a point. I don't care what the rules say exactly, I just want them to be fair and equal to everyone who steps on the field.

There is no way you will convince me that allowing cyclone fed guns is fair and equal treatment for everyone at DZ because it is not. No forcefeed means no forcefeed. If you're going to allow one forcefeed that can be turned down then you have to let allow all. My Ego goes down to 4BPS so why can't I set the board for the A5 electro's max ROF and play with my forcefeed loader? It would be exactly the same thing as the A5 but I'm sure that wouldn't fly because the gun I use is seen as part of the problem but Tippmanns are not. I'm sorry that the A5 guys have guns that don't fall within the new rules but the owners of DZ should have thought of that before they made their new rule and realized that they were undermining the rule and defeating it's purpose by allowing a certain type of forcefeed gun and no other. It's a disparity that's going to make the rule worthless. You say that people won't go out and buy new guns just to have forcefeed capabilities but I say that since the very begining of paintball people have spent ridiculous amounts of money on useless items for the chance of having a slight advantage on the paintball field. Someone who shoots a high ROF gun on the rec field right now will have no problem buying an A5 for the advantage of the forcefeed loader once the rest of the competition is using gravity feeds. The biggest problem is that the ones who run out and buy cyclone fed guns to try and beat the rule are going to be the ones that are causing all the problems right now and not the ones that play well with others right now.

For the record, I've been around paintball far too long to be traumatized by anybody with any gun. Pissed off? Absolutely. Traumatized or scared? Nope. The stories I shared about Tippmann toters doing me wrong were true but again they were simply posted to support my position.

I've never played at DZ and I doubt I ever will(geographically impossible) but I think their new rule is worthless if they allow cyclone feeds an exemption and no one will change my mind about that. They took something that was black and white and beautiful in it's simplicity and ruined it by allowing cyclone feeds.