General

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by davidwirth

no its not about disagreement, it is about bettering the herd.

while you might feel as a parent that you know it all, and understand the world in its completeness, you dont. and passing on to your children simply what you know, and telling them that anything else is wrong, is simply brainwash.
is this not your post?

yes it is

If that is not saying that parents are too stupid to educate their own kids (you were agreeing with SD about how home schools and private schools are a bad for kids) just what actually are you trying to say?

not that, clearly

Kids need to be taught sometimes it is "just do it because I say so" I am not going to get into a discussion "why not to touch the stove other than its hot" Granted some kids are stupid and will get burned on the stove because they didn't listen, oh well that is life, live and learn real stupid ones will get burned numerous times before it sinks in.

ok .... that story means nothing given what we are talkign about.

You did call your own mother basically an idiot because she would rather have home schooled you because you think she isn't smart enough or maybe didn't take enough educational classes to properly indoctrinate you the way the state wants to.

again, thats not what i said ... i disagree with my mother, nothing more. i didn't say she was stupid or anything else. however, being where i am today, as a direct result of parenting, and schooling, i can look back and look at what my mother wished for me, and disagree with her. shes not stupid, we simply disagree.

As for the last F- ya if ya can't take a joke

good deal ... next time i have a joke like that im gonna keep it to myself. the question again is, did decide that becuase my mother said so, or simply becuase i dont want to appear a jackass?

my point with that statement you quoted is this -

a single person, or even a pair of peoples perspective on the world is not enough to understand the world. sorry, it just isn't. and to think that will only lead to brainwashing your child. then, when your child no longer has you to look over there shoulder, they will have nothing. and this will lead to major problems in there life.

then again, i can read a post that i disagree with, and not say that the poster should never have been born. but then maybe that goes right along with knowing and understanding simple truths of the universe and of human culture - that i learned in public school. but then that goes back to learning thinking skills which allow me to think about and decide on the world around me, independent of what my mom, dad, and the church says.

[Dave Cameron]

I don't know why I'm wading into this mess, but...

I think what CP is getting at is that there is a benefit to learning from lots of different teachers, with different outlooks and teaching styles. Different people learn in different ways and simply knowing something doesn't mean you will be good at teaching it. Sure there are bad teachers in public schools. There are also some great ones. And even if you are a "better" teacher then most of them, exposure to only your "better than average" teaching excludes your kid from exposure to the great teachers.

There's also a whole lot of learning that goes on in schools that is not part of the curriculum - social learning and figuring out where one fits in the world. It's a messy, darwinian process, but I don't think that it can happen unless kids are in groups, figuring stuff out on their own. A parent (or a teacher, for that matter) can't teach that - it's experiential learning that kids need to learn by doing.

My Opinion: Private schools on average are probably better than public schools. Better resources and the expectation of results that come with paying a large bill. Public schools on average are better than home schooling, simply because of the exposure to multiple viewpoints, styles, and other students the same age. Home schoolers may have more book learnin', but most of the ones I've met are behind their peers in social skills.

Regardless, the method of education can only have so much effect. The variability of the student has more effect than how you teach him.

And that's all I have to say about that. Have fun!

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by Dave Cameron

I don't know why I'm wading into this mess, but...

I think what CP is getting at is that there is a benefit to learning from lots of different teachers, with different outlooks and teaching styles. Different people learn in different ways and simply knowing something doesn't mean you will be good at teaching it. Sure there are bad teachers in public schools. There are also some great ones. And even if you are a "better" teacher then most of them, exposure to only your "better than average" teaching excludes your kid from exposure to the great teachers.

There's also a whole lot of learning that goes on in schools that is not part of the curriculum - social learning and figuring out where one fits in the world. It's a messy, darwinian process, but I don't think that it can happen unless kids are in groups, figuring stuff out on their own. A parent (or a teacher, for that matter) can't teach that - it's experiential learning that kids need to learn by doing.

My Opinion: Private schools on average are probably better than public schools. Better resources and the expectation of results that come with paying a large bill. Public schools on average are better than home schooling, simply because of the exposure to multiple viewpoints, styles, and other students the same age. Home schoolers may have more book learnin', but most of the ones I've met are behind their peers in social skills.

And that's all I have to say about that. Have fun!

for the most part - correct.

its also not even a matter of teaching skills or styles. but of the martial itself. having 3 different econ professors and teachers from junior high to college has given me more understanding of it, regardless of the teaching style. i learned becuase it was from three different poeple, three different (actually probably far more than 3) different looks at economics. doesn't mean any one teacher was stupid or wrong, they just all rank the importantace of things differently, they look at the issues differently ...

now, as far as my major, i have 5 different engineers teaching me right now. that gives me a broad understanding of engineering, rather than if i was being mentored by just one. i know dr. lindike is an old school industrial guy, haveing been a student of his, i know how he would design a product. i know dr enemoah (pronounced enn-emm-waoh) is partial to sheet metal processes and thus the product he designs would differ from dr lindike's.

so, being the discerning student and critical thinker i am, i can decide that perhaps one guys way of doing things is better for some reason that another way. rather than if i had only one teacher, i would have only one though process into the subject.

EDIT

im a math tutor at my school.

i have a teaching style that i like, and that i use. but more than that, i have a different insite into math being an engineer rather than a mathematician. it doesn't mean mathematicians are wrong, just do things differently sometimes. and many times that helps students learn math.

[davidwirth]

Lets see if I am smart enough to hit the point you are trying to make

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

indeed!

Agreeing with SD? Close?

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

while you might feel as a parent that you know it all, and understand the world in its completeness, you dont. and passing on to your children simply what you know, and telling them that anything else is wrong, is simply brainwash.

That parents are unqualified to teach their children because they have a limited view on the world. But in reality, they themselves are products of the same education system even though our education system says we are receiving a well rounded education when we were in school. And if you don't think the teachers in the public school system have a limited view, all I have to say is that you are naive.

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

and you just begging for two things - either they take everything you say to heart, and have a terrible life. or they reject everything you said and have a terrible life

You have set two extremes here and making a broad statement where only those to things happen. What happens to everything inbetween these to limits (which is where the majority will fall)

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

in the first case, where they take everything you say as fact - they dont understand the way the world works. guess what kids, poeple you know will be promiscuous, they will do things you dont agree with, they will say things you dont like, and that doesn't actually make the evil. in the end, you will have to live a life with poeple you disagree with, fundamentally. and unless you can get the **** off your high horse and actually get down to work, play and whatever else with the real world - you will reject the real world and it will reject you.

All I have to say is who's "real world" the Real World is what the individual makes of their life, who are you or me to say what the real world is? Are you saying that Donald Trump's kids don't live in the real world? Their world is real its just that it is a world that we will probably never live in but will strive to

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

in the second case, the first weekend little miss christian girl goes out her freshman year and gets banged on a pool table by two junior communications majors becuase she didn't have a Christian coffee house to go to, you will have failed. in this case, your childs morality and such is based on you, and the church and her friends. and the minute those things are not holding her down, they freak out.

yeah, she got raped because she was a christian right? There was no other christians on campus for her to socialize with, she must have been going to Athiest University right?

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

the goal is to raise a kid that relies on the themselves, trusts there decisions, and sticks by there convictions.

Yes, once they are adults

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

and the only way that can happen - is if they learn real quick - that poeple dont like them, poeple disagree with them, and thats ok. number one lesson i ever learned in public school is just that - there are poeple that you hate, and that hate you in this world. and at the end of the day, and your project needs to be done by monday - you have to do it. you have to live with and get along with a roomate who drinks on a tuesday night. you just do.

Again, you act like if the kid is home schooled or is taught in private school that they will never see this? Come on the kid doesn't get locked in a classroom by himself while at school he does have interaction between other students and adults, also, the kid will have friends in the neighborhood that will hate him I am sure. And no, you don't have to put up with a roommate that drinks on Tuesday night. Get a freaking new roommate, move, make it miserable for him so he doesn't want to live there, move back home should I go on and on about the different choices you have with a roommate?

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

my mother has always said that if she did it all over again, that she would have home schooled me and my brother.

and i always tell her that would be the worst mistake in raising me.

then again, she still thinks im a virgin.

You don't trust your mother to teach you the things you need to know to make it through life and you hold her in comtempt because you feel you have gotten one over on her because she thinks your a virgin? So the way I read this is "my mom is sooo stupid she thinks that at 21 I am still a virgin."
And I don't think anyone on the board really cares what your statis is on that, so why put it?

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

what your parents need to teach a child to rationality. its logical and critical thinking skills. its how to emotionally and rationally deal with what the world sends you.

what your parents shouldn't teach you is - morals, beliefs, political ideology or anything like any of those.

Moral, beliefs and political ideology is taught by the parent. The kids are going to see and hear discussions in the house hold with these things included. The parent teaches these through passive learning. Or do you recommend that the parents when getting into a political discussion dismiss the young'ns from the room? parents usually have the same morals and belief structure but it isnt fact that dems marry dems and reps marry reps.

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

and if you have done well, and raised your child right, you child will think for himself, and make good decisions. he will understand the WHY you say to stay in school, the WHY you should keep your virginity, the WHY shouldn't do drugs, the WHY of it all. teh WHY and how to understand complex situations is far more important than the what.

Teaching them morals and standing up for their beliefs is parenting believe it or not

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

and if you have done badly and only told them "you shouldn't do this or that, becuase i said so, or becuase the church says so, or because its evil" then your child will turn out like the two situations i already highlighted earlier.

Again, I am not going to get into a discussion about how not to put your finger in a outlet with a 4 year old you do it because I said so

[davidwirth]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

yes, i was mocking you right there. however, notice that i did not stoop to your level at any point.

OOOoo how clever, can you teach me to do that.

you might notice that is sarcasm

Anyway, mocking is mocking trying to be "clever" about it doesn't change it. I am just more direct.

[HurtCow]

[big jim]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

indeed!

while you might feel as a parent that you know it all, and understand the world in its completeness, you dont. and passing on to your children simply what you know, and telling them that anything else is wrong, is simply brainwash.
Who says that parents who home school their children, or private school teachers, tell the kids that what they think is gospel and everything else is wrong? If I have two science degrees and my wife went to Cambridge and has masters level classes in crystal physics could it be possible that we do in fact know more on some topics than the teachers?

and you just begging for two things - either they take everything you say to heart, and have a terrible life. or they reject everything you said and have a terrible life.

Is there room for a third possibility where we may give our children the room to think for themselves and yet present morals in a way that they can accept them on their own?
in the first case, where they take everything you say as fact - they dont understand the way the world works. guess what kids, poeple you know will be promiscuous, they will do things you dont agree with, they will say things you dont like, and that doesn't actually make the evil. in the end, you will have to live a life with poeple you disagree with, fundamentally. and unless you can get the **** off your high horse and actually get down to work, play and whatever else with the real world - you will reject the real world and it will reject you.

in the second case, the first weekend little miss christian girl goes out her freshman year and gets banged on a pool table by two junior communications majors becuase she didn't have a Christian coffee house to go to, you will have failed. in this case, your childs morality and such is based on you, and the church and her friends. and the minute those things are not holding her down, they freak out.

Do we sound angry and bitter here? That may be what David is picking up on. Who says that a Christian kid has to totally reject their values when their parents aren't around? I knew plenty in collage who didn't. There were plenty who did, but it definately wasn't all of them.

the goal is to raise a kid that relies on the themselves, trusts there decisions, and sticks by there convictions.
How is it that this can only happen in the public school?

and the only way that can happen - is if they learn real quick - that poeple dont like them, poeple disagree with them, and thats ok. number one lesson i ever learned in public school is just that - there are poeple that you hate, and that hate you in this world. and at the end of the day, and your project needs to be done by monday - you have to do it. you have to live with and get along with a roomate who drinks on a tuesday night. you just do.

my mother has always said that if she did it all over again, that she would have home schooled me and my brother.

and i always tell her that would be the worst mistake in raising me.

then again, she still thinks im a virgin.

what your parents need to teach a child to rationality. its logical and critical thinking skills. its how to emotionally and rationally deal with what the world sends you.

what your parents shouldn't teach you is - morals, beliefs, political ideology or anything like any of those.

and if you have done well, and raised your child right, you child will think for himself, and make good decisions. he will understand the WHY you say to stay in school, the WHY you should keep your virginity, the WHY shouldn't do drugs, the WHY of it all. teh WHY and how to understand complex situations is far more important than the what.

and if you have done badly and only told them "you shouldn't do this or that, becuase i said so, or becuase the church says so, or because its evil" then your child will turn out like the two situations i already highlighted earlier.

I would agree with you that unless the why is taught, the lesson is not taught.
so back to public school -

the point is that while we all encounter many many many terrible teachers. teachers that flat out teach the wrong things, if your child is a logical and rational thinking child - they can make judgments about what is coming into there head. and they can take the 100's of different teachers they have in there life, and they can distill who has a brain, who doesn't. whos experience is worthwhile to listen to and whos isn't. but, if all you do is remove your child from that, and give them only what YOU think is correct, they will have no ability to critically think about anything. they will have no idea about anything the minute they move out. and you will get one of those two situations i have explained before.
At what age is a child able to make critical and rational decisions about everything in life? Would you say a 6 year old is fully capable? A ten year old? A 16 year old? Yesterday I heard in an advertisement that the most useless thing you can do is try to tell a teenager something, because they allready know everything. I guess there is no need for further school after they become teenagers then right? Wrong, the point was that while with their limited experience they think they know everything, there is a lot out there that they don't know yet and they still need guidance.

and thats what the previous generation has so far failed at - teaching children thinking skills. instead, they tried to teach us what to do and what not to do. they didn't realize that deep down what a kid does in a situation has nothing to do with what you told him/her to do, but with what that kid thinks, what he understands, and how this relates to his future and his personal wellbeing. an add on TV saying weed is bad means nothing. but teach a kid to decide between the consequences of using or not - and then you will have a successful child.

and so you get exactly what everyone is complaining about. this is the product of telling your kids what to do, what to know, how to think, and then them totally rejecting everything you said. and its only natural, i mean what else could you expect?

knowledge is worthless without judgment. you can look facts up in books, you can know more than ever in our society with the internet, wikipedia, and such. and its all worthless unless your child has the thinking skills to make rational decisions.

Cocker Punk,
I would like to add a couple of additional thoughts. First, you say that it is wrong for parents to teach morals to their kids, that they will decide what is right by themselves. Do the public schools teach academic facts in a moral vacuum? Don't the teacher's morals and values effect what and how they teach students? Why should parents blindly trust teachers to give kids values when we know that many of the teachers have values that we disagree with? believe it or not many of the values and morals we attempt to teach our children are meant to help them avoid pain and other problems. Actually, believe it or not many parents can teach children to think for themselves as well. That isn't a skill taught only to fourth year education majors.
Perhaps some parents feel that their children would benefit from being sheltered from the harsh reality of bully's and teachers who have to teach to the median of the class for a few extra years. Children learn soon enough that life isn't all roses. If they can get some one on one teaching and care early on they may be better suited to deal with those challenges that you think.
As far as learning to think for themselves, we are having more problems with our homeschooled children not thinking in lockstep with the teachers that don't have time for students who don't jump on demand.

[big jim]

Wow, I took so long that there was almost an entire page posted while I was organizing my thoughts.

And I was going to add that the reason David's mention of politicians is relevant is that at the bottom of things they fund public schools and decide what is to be taught and what isn't. If they fund and control the schools and yet do not trust the schools to teach their own children you have to ask why that is. Part of that critical thinking and discernment we all value.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by davidwirth

Lets see if I am smart enough to hit the point you are trying to make

cool

Agreeing with SD? Close?

yes, i agree with what SD has said in the parts of the post i quoted

That parents are unqualified to teach their children because they have a limited view on the world. yesBut in reality, they themselves are products of the same education system even though our education system says we are receiving a well rounded education when we were in school. yeah so? we are all the product of our environments to some extent And if you don't think the teachers in the public school system have a limited view, all I have to say is that you are naive.no, they have just as narrow a veiw, but in school, you deal with 100s of them by the time you are done.



You have set two extremes here and making a broad statement where only those to things happen. What happens to everything inbetween these to limits (which is where the majority will fall)

in my experience there is no in between unless it is "learn what CP is saying is generally correct and live accordingly" meaning, poeple will hate you, poeple will disagree with you, but you have to learn to live with that. otherwise, i have see it happen over and over again, the two extremes i have have illustrated.


All I have to say is who's "real world" the Real World is what the individual makes of their life, who are you or me to say what the real world is? Are you saying that Donald Trump's kids don't live in the real world? Their world is real its just that it is a world that we will probably never live in but will strive to

the real world in this case is the world outside of your house. outside of the protection of your parents and outside any other structure that agrees with what you think. becuase guess what - the world doesn't agree with me, you, or anyone else.

yeah, she got raped because she was a christian right? There was no other christians on campus for her to socialize with, she must have been going to Athiest University right?

thats exactly the point tho. once shes outside of support system, when shes on her own to make her own dicistions - what will she do? i have seen many a whore/skank/slut/whatever grown of this exact phenomena. and for the record, none of those cases were rape. she (meaning the hypothetical girl in that antidote) gave it up willingly beucase she had no one around to tell her no, and she lacked the thinking skills to funny understand the consequences of her actions.

Yes, once they are adults

right - when they move out of the support system that made them they must hit the ground running. and without practicing those skills and such, they will be totally unprepared.

Again, you act like if the kid is home schooled or is taught in private school that they will never see this?

homeschooled - no. sorry, i have dealt with it before and i have yet to see a single homeschooled kid not fall into the three above mentioned catagories -
1. reject parents and freak out making terrible decitions
2. learn what they should have about human culture from school (meaning, understand that what i am saying is bascially correct)
3. hold on to there parents like a lifeline. reject society, and society rejects them.

ome on the kid doesn't get locked in a classroom by himself while at school he does have interaction between other students and adults, also, the kid will have friends in the neighborhood that will hate him I am sure. And no, you don't have to put up with a roommate that drinks on Tuesday night. Get a freaking new roommate, move, make it miserable for him so he doesn't want to live there, move back home should I go on and on about the different choices you have with a roommate?

sometimes you just have to (for everyone involved's sake) make a joke about it, and learn to live with it. otherwise, you might be headed directly for category 3 mentioned above.

You don't trust your mother to teach you the things you need to know to make it through life and you hold her in comtempt because you feel you have gotten one over on her because she thinks your a virgin? So the way I read this is "my mom is sooo stupid she thinks that at 21 I am still a virgin."
And I don't think anyone on the board really cares what your statis is on that, so why put it?

well, thats simply not what i said.

i trust my mother. i take advice from her. i talk to her about things in my life, and she talks to me about things too.

my virgin comment was simply about how, while i respect her opinions and her advice, i sometimes dont follow it. its not a matter of "haha, she so silly" its a matter of understanding.

i understand that my mom wants to best for me. she has told me that i should wait until marriage to have sex. why (thats the most important question here) becuase the relationship you have sex in, needs to have the depth and understanding of a serious commitment. it needs to have the seriousness and emotional connection to sustain a healthy sexual relationship on top of a healthy relationship. i hope you dont disagree with that? its the ring that makes it ok, its the relationship. the ring is just a symbol of that.

now, i have been dating the same girl for damn near 5 years. she was a long time "no sex before marriage" and i understood that. i never pressured her about it (mainly because i understood exactly what i typed earlier), but also becuase she is still the greatest person i have ever meet, and its ok with me to not have sex with her. one day not to long ago she asked me what i thought about having sex now. after i picked my jaw up off the ground (having never expected her to say that), we talked about it. she had concerns, as did i, but in the end we decided to do it.

why is this important? because we talked to great length about our relationship, and if it had the factors that make a healthy sexual relationship possible. she understood the same thing i did, and we have an amazing relationship, so we decided to. and it has not hurt our relationship one bit, so i think we made the right call.

and don't even try to give me that "why buy the cow when you get the sex for free" ****. i want to be with her, i want to marry her, but i am also smart enough to understand that i am not capable, nor in any kind of position to marry her right now.

the point being, i understood the WHY of the rule, not just herd the rule so many times i accepted it as truth. knowing the why is more important than the rule itself.



Moral, beliefs and political ideology is taught by the parent. The kids are going to see and hear discussions in the house hold with these things included. The parent teaches these through passive learning. Or do you recommend that the parents when getting into a political discussion dismiss the young'ns from the room? parents usually have the same morals and belief structure but it isnt fact that dems marry dems and reps marry reps.

all the poeple in my family all have very different political and religious believes. we sat at the dinner table (and still do when we all get togther) and talk about them all the time. the problem is when the children are told at a young age "this is wrong, this is dumb, ..." becuase again - WHY is the key here. some political ideas are dumb, many, on both sides, but its the WHY not the "becuase thats what i always herd as a kid growing up"

Teaching them morals and standing up for their beliefs is parenting believe it or not

again, you can't teach morals. true morals are come only from deep down thinking about the world and who you are. simpyl repeating over and over to your kids "dont do drugs" isn't teaching them anything.

Again, I am not going to get into a discussion about how not to put your finger in a outlet with a 4 year old you do it because I said so
i never said such a thing.

alright, besides going back to just my first post, and ignoring the rest ... heres my response. also, i would ask that you respect the thoughts and the relatively private information i have posted.

thanks in advance

[davidwirth]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

alright, besides going back to just my first post, and ignoring the rest ... heres my response. also, i would ask that you respect the thoughts and the relatively private information i have posted.

thanks in advance

um you made a post on a public forum. That opens it up if you don't want people to respond (and from what i see, anything that posted about it that you don't like or agree with is showing disrespect) dont post. You have the right to post anything you want I can respond the way I see fit. If you don't like it, complain to a mod