Draxxus Reg Exploded in the Netherlands - Page 4

Steelrat · 04-06-2008, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P4p3Rc1iP

I'd say about 75% of all fiber-wrapped HPA tanks in Europe are Stako's. Also note that so far, no Stako tank itself has failed, it's always been the regs.

Am I the only one who sees a parallel between the number of stako tanks there and the number of failure reports?

Also, some of those stako failures weren't reg failures. There was one failure where the actual threading inside the tank blew out. That's not supposed to happen.

angrysasquatch · 04-06-2008, 09:39 PM

Alright lets start with what we do know.

tank has a hole drilled across the reg, then likely a hole drilled up from the tankside of the reg that connects to it- look at the tank picture, that straight thing going across is black, and thus anodized, and thus manufactured.

It failed at this point- if you can see the hole as a rectangle, you're only actually seeing half of the hole, and the other half is somewhere else (pretty obvious)

Little more fuel for that- a crack does not propagate in a gigantic jagged line period. It goes straight across. Thus differing strength (hole) made it go jagged.

I think we can all disclude a oil fire or over pressurization, no signs of heat or burning and no burst discs gone. I think we can also disclude something wrong with the Stako threads, if the threads failed on either interface, the reg would come out whole, plus or minus a set of threads.

In the second last picture, you can see a discoloration (bare aluminum) on the side of the ASA threaded bit. To be on the side, I highly doubt that was due to the reg being launched, therefore it likely happened before the launch and contributed to it. The only way that might happen is if the reg were spun very quickly by the air and hit something hard, but I doubt the tank would a) be able to put any significant energy into the reg before it moved away from the tank and b) that the air blast would impart a great deal of spin to the reg. So IMO, it happened before.

The week-old bit also leads me to believe that it was overtorqued and dropped.

So, if the reg were hit before, it would explain the ordeal somewhat. However, I don't think we can put this to bed yet. We need to know:

who installed the reg (with what tool it was installed if it was by joe blow)

how much force would be needed to snap the neck where it was in a side load (and thus what height it would need to be dropped from to make specified phenomena happen, if it will snap at 5 foot with an overtorqued reg, that's plausible, 30 feet isn't). There's gotta be a real engineer on here.

the manufacturer's torque spec

Sorry if the wording messes up some of you people, I've been writing way too many lab reports

flyweightnate · 04-06-2008, 10:04 PM

Nicely put. I was looking at the fault line with a cocker head... "huh?"
The weakest line would be from the corner where the vertical and horizontal holes meet, straight out. But looking at the top half of the reg, it's an angular hole, and doesn't even contact that intersection. Huh? So somehow, the reg threads failed up top, too, which says "impact". Probably started a hairline fracture there that got traced back down to the vent hole that was cross-drilled. I want more pics.

P4p3Rc1iP · 04-06-2008, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrysasquatch

Alright lets start with what we do know.

tank has a hole drilled across the reg, then likely a hole drilled up from the tankside of the reg that connects to it- look at the tank picture, that straight thing going across is black, and thus anodized, and thus manufactured.

It failed at this point- if you can see the hole as a rectangle, you're only actually seeing half of the hole, and the other half is somewhere else (pretty obvious)

Little more fuel for that- a crack does not propagate in a gigantic jagged line period. It goes straight across. Thus differing strength (hole) made it go jagged.

I think we can all disclude a oil fire or over pressurization, no signs of heat or burning and no burst discs gone. I think we can also disclude something wrong with the Stako threads, if the threads failed on either interface, the reg would come out whole, plus or minus a set of threads.

In the second last picture, you can see a discoloration (bare aluminum) on the side of the ASA threaded bit. To be on the side, I highly doubt that was due to the reg being launched, therefore it likely happened before the launch and contributed to it. The only way that might happen is if the reg were spun very quickly by the air and hit something hard, but I doubt the tank would a) be able to put any significant energy into the reg before it moved away from the tank and b) that the air blast would impart a great deal of spin to the reg. So IMO, it happened before.

The week-old bit also leads me to believe that it was overtorqued and dropped.

So, if the reg were hit before, it would explain the ordeal somewhat. However, I don't think we can put this to bed yet. We need to know:

who installed the reg (with what tool it was installed if it was by joe blow)

how much force would be needed to snap the neck where it was in a side load (and thus what height it would need to be dropped from to make specified phenomena happen, if it will snap at 5 foot with an overtorqued reg, that's plausible, 30 feet isn't). There's gotta be a real engineer on here.

the manufacturer's torque spec

Sorry if the wording messes up some of you people, I've been writing way too many lab reports

I mostly agree with you, but I don't think you should judge the dent on the front end of the reg just yet. I can see it denting if it can take out a piece of a wall, like the "victim" said it has.

Either way, it would take a severe drop to dent it like that, if it was dropped... And "just a drop" should in my opinion never lead to complete failure. Hell, enough people handle their gear like crap, and even the ones that don't fall from time to time. A regulator/tank should be the last thing ever to fail when a gun is dropped.

Oh, and just to let you know, the "victim" is working at figuring out how this could have happened. I think he's already contacted Draxxus about it and will get some research done. I hope he'll have more info soon.

Raion · 04-06-2008, 10:08 PM

if someone wants me to take a picture of the PE and DXS reg side by side, I can. They are 2 different regs and weigh 2 different weights (dxs is slightly heavier).

It just doesn't add up to me.

Raion · 04-06-2008, 10:11 PM

^ normally it wouldnt but its a stacko tank. Also, I really doubt this was a new reg, you can see wear where the oring used to be .. but somehow isn't there anymore. I think the idiot locktited it in and dropped it at an angle, then tries to blame dxs. Thats my story and I'm sticking too it !

skiddish9999 · 04-06-2008, 11:08 PM

So the correct way is just torquing it down to 70 foot pounds (I think that's the correct measurement) and not loctiting at all....? (seems like the loctite is a little bit of an extra safety measure if done correctly)

I'm not certain with tanks, so could someone enlighten me?

Skiddish

Raion · 04-06-2008, 11:17 PM

yes. Locktite is a no no. The oring is on the reg seals the tank. You can actually just twist the reg on then tape it a few times with a hammer and u are good to go. I travel with tanks (fly to events) and this is how I do it everytime. This is how the pros and manufacturs do it too.

I think the locktite makes it weak. I mean it makes it where it can't give at all and it would snap. I dunno how true that really is but if they were meant to have locktite , the manufactuor would have done it at the factory.

angrysasquatch · 04-06-2008, 11:20 PM

paperclip:
A drop from enough height will break anything is my point. Now, whether that drop is within regular circumstances of 5 feet or so is the question. I certainly hope that it's engineered to take a drop from that height, but if it was overtorqued, all that careful planning goes to hell. However, you can look at bulk CO2 bottles and the like, and those are certainly not meant to survive a fall over, if the wrong spot is hit.

I think the safety concerns with tanks is way too lenient. There should be way more training with tanks. They should be treated like hand grenades, they've got the same level of possible energy release. Would you treat a hand grenade as carelessly as your tank? Just because the tank is meant to contain that energy safely doesnt mean you should treat it any different. (and by "you", I'm not really talking directly to you, not saying that you dont take care with your tanks)

raion:
Locktiting tanks is not a bad thing by any means. The only possible bad thing, safety-wise that comes from locktiting is the air bleed off might not work in the event of an unscrew. Up until a few years ago, all paintball tanks needed locktited regs, then they realized the air pressure was putting enough friction on the threads that it wasn't needed to keep the reg from accidentally unscrewing. Not some safety issue as you seem to think.

edit: the locktite actually gives it some "give", since the locktite itself is a lot less hard than the steel or aluminum beneath it, it will give. Why exactly would you tap it with a hammer? It doesn't exactly sound like a good idea, though I doubt it would do anything. I'm just wondering what the reason that you think you should tap it might be.

WGPKlaus · 04-06-2008, 11:23 PM

Theres something fishy about this gentlemans claim. The threads appear as though they were ripped, meaning over torqued and weakened by said process. It's hard to tell from the pics, but it also appears as though the threads dont start at the top of the tanks neck, but rather down an inch or so? If there were threads and the reg half were to "explode" off the top portion, it would be evident on the reg top threads, and they appear to be fine. I'm not buying this, seems awful suspect, at least according to the account?

Regarding Raions comment, Draxxus/Procaps does sell regs seperately, or at least they had as I purchased 10 regs(7 HP and 3 LP output)for the shop right before Christmas.

04-06-2008, 10:08 PM	#35 (permalink)
Raion Official PBN Translator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,262	if someone wants me to take a picture of the PE and DXS reg side by side, I can. They are 2 different regs and weigh 2 different weights (dxs is slightly heavier). It just doesn't add up to me. __________________ WTB Dye Titanium back in cocker threads ! Also want a cocker boomstick back in cocker threads. FEEDBACK

04-06-2008, 10:11 PM	#36 (permalink)
Raion Official PBN Translator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,262	^ normally it wouldnt but its a stacko tank. Also, I really doubt this was a new reg, you can see wear where the oring used to be .. but somehow isn't there anymore. I think the idiot locktited it in and dropped it at an angle, then tries to blame dxs. Thats my story and I'm sticking too it ! __________________ WTB Dye Titanium back in cocker threads ! Also want a cocker boomstick back in cocker threads. FEEDBACK

04-06-2008, 11:17 PM	#38 (permalink)
Raion Official PBN Translator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,262	yes. Locktite is a no no. The oring is on the reg seals the tank. You can actually just twist the reg on then tape it a few times with a hammer and u are good to go. I travel with tanks (fly to events) and this is how I do it everytime. This is how the pros and manufacturs do it too. I think the locktite makes it weak. I mean it makes it where it can't give at all and it would snap. I dunno how true that really is but if they were meant to have locktite , the manufactuor would have done it at the factory. __________________ WTB Dye Titanium back in cocker threads ! Also want a cocker boomstick back in cocker threads. FEEDBACK

04-06-2008, 11:20 PM	#39 (permalink)
angrysasquatch Newbie Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 29	paperclip: A drop from enough height will break anything is my point. Now, whether that drop is within regular circumstances of 5 feet or so is the question. I certainly hope that it's engineered to take a drop from that height, but if it was overtorqued, all that careful planning goes to hell. However, you can look at bulk CO2 bottles and the like, and those are certainly not meant to survive a fall over, if the wrong spot is hit. I think the safety concerns with tanks is way too lenient. There should be way more training with tanks. They should be treated like hand grenades, they've got the same level of possible energy release. Would you treat a hand grenade as carelessly as your tank? Just because the tank is meant to contain that energy safely doesnt mean you should treat it any different. (and by "you", I'm not really talking directly to you, not saying that you dont take care with your tanks) raion: Locktiting tanks is not a bad thing by any means. The only possible bad thing, safety-wise that comes from locktiting is the air bleed off might not work in the event of an unscrew. Up until a few years ago, all paintball tanks needed locktited regs, then they realized the air pressure was putting enough friction on the threads that it wasn't needed to keep the reg from accidentally unscrewing. Not some safety issue as you seem to think. edit: the locktite actually gives it some "give", since the locktite itself is a lot less hard than the steel or aluminum beneath it, it will give. Why exactly would you tap it with a hammer? It doesn't exactly sound like a good idea, though I doubt it would do anything. I'm just wondering what the reason that you think you should tap it might be. Last edited by angrysasquatch; 04-06-2008 at 11:25 PM.

04-06-2008, 09:39 PM	#32 (permalink)
angrysasquatch Newbie Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 29	Alright lets start with what we do know. tank has a hole drilled across the reg, then likely a hole drilled up from the tankside of the reg that connects to it- look at the tank picture, that straight thing going across is black, and thus anodized, and thus manufactured. It failed at this point- if you can see the hole as a rectangle, you're only actually seeing half of the hole, and the other half is somewhere else (pretty obvious) Little more fuel for that- a crack does not propagate in a gigantic jagged line period. It goes straight across. Thus differing strength (hole) made it go jagged. I think we can all disclude a oil fire or over pressurization, no signs of heat or burning and no burst discs gone. I think we can also disclude something wrong with the Stako threads, if the threads failed on either interface, the reg would come out whole, plus or minus a set of threads. In the second last picture, you can see a discoloration (bare aluminum) on the side of the ASA threaded bit. To be on the side, I highly doubt that was due to the reg being launched, therefore it likely happened before the launch and contributed to it. The only way that might happen is if the reg were spun very quickly by the air and hit something hard, but I doubt the tank would a) be able to put any significant energy into the reg before it moved away from the tank and b) that the air blast would impart a great deal of spin to the reg. So IMO, it happened before. The week-old bit also leads me to believe that it was overtorqued and dropped. So, if the reg were hit before, it would explain the ordeal somewhat. However, I don't think we can put this to bed yet. We need to know: who installed the reg (with what tool it was installed if it was by joe blow) how much force would be needed to snap the neck where it was in a side load (and thus what height it would need to be dropped from to make specified phenomena happen, if it will snap at 5 foot with an overtorqued reg, that's plausible, 30 feet isn't). There's gotta be a real engineer on here. the manufacturer's torque spec Sorry if the wording messes up some of you people, I've been writing way too many lab reports

04-06-2008, 11:23 PM	#40 (permalink)
WGPKlaus Active Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 322	Theres something fishy about this gentlemans claim. The threads appear as though they were ripped, meaning over torqued and weakened by said process. It's hard to tell from the pics, but it also appears as though the threads dont start at the top of the tanks neck, but rather down an inch or so? If there were threads and the reg half were to "explode" off the top portion, it would be evident on the reg top threads, and they appear to be fine. I'm not buying this, seems awful suspect, at least according to the account? Regarding Raions comment, Draxxus/Procaps does sell regs seperately, or at least they had as I purchased 10 regs(7 HP and 3 LP output)for the shop right before Christmas.