Draxxus Reg Exploded in the Netherlands - Page 7

angrysasquatch · 04-07-2008, 12:20 PM

Raion- I think that tapping it with a hammer to tighten it is a very careless way to do it. By tappin it with a hammer, you DON'T know what you are infact torquing the reg to. That type of thing could very well have made this failure happen, tapped too hard with the hammer, overtorqued the reg, and it failed as a result. Things are torqued on with a torque wrench, a precise peice of equipment meant to torque things on at a specified value. I'm sure that if the engineer responsible for the reg saw the techs hammering as a means of torquing it, he'd have a fit.

That said, I have put a new tank on my reg and did not locktite or torque it, since Air America had a policy of "don't touch the reg" and didn't give me a torque value for it. I simply did it as tight as I could by hand and am always aware which section of the reg is uncrewing from what. And I don't lend out my gun to anyone who isn't aware of such dangers.

DRG- that is certainly possible, but i would expect that the ASA threads would strip a little or the frame/drop would soak up most of the impact leaving the tank threads fine.

DarkArmorPB · 04-07-2008, 01:21 PM

From the damage inflicted to the gauge and the threaded screw in portion of the reg in the pictures shown, it does look like it was dropped on a concrete floor. Probably at just the right angle to put a hairline fracture in reg it self which either caused an immediate failure, or one at a later time.

DA

Schmitti · 04-07-2008, 01:35 PM

Quote:

then tape it a few times with a hammer and u are good to go. I travel with tanks (fly to events) and this is how I do it everytime. This is how the pros and manufacturs do it too.

Darwinism at it's finest.... it will catch up to you in the end.

E

idkfa · 04-07-2008, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrysasquatch

That said, I have put a new tank on my reg and did not locktite or torque it, since Air America had a policy of "don't touch the reg" and didn't give me a torque value for it. I simply did it as tight as I could by hand and am always aware which section of the reg is uncrewing from what. And I don't lend out my gun to anyone who isn't aware of such dangers.

I think this statement should be saved for posterity in the almost guaranteed event that you kill someone. You are sitting on a rocket, and saying "it's okay, I know what I am doing" does not make it okay, not even close. It's okay though, that kid at that open game does not need a head.

Schmitti · 04-07-2008, 02:17 PM

Actually (steps to lecturn) hand tightening a reg to a tank, while probably not the best method, is probably far more appropriate than over torquing the reg into the tank. Remember, the tank (metal tank with fiberglass/resin shell) is made to withstand pressure which incurs tension equally across surface of the tank.... while a rotational force at the collar of the tank can provide a combination compressive/tensional force in the material which could cause failure around the tank collar.

Also... if a reg is screwed into a tank the full inch or so that you screw it in.. how is going to seperate and rocket away?

The only thing applying additional torque to the reg causes is frictional forces between the contacting horizontal surfaces of the reg and tank collar... not additional "super gripping forces" along the threads.

So long as the reg stays screwed into the tank, the reg/tank are not going to rocket off in any direction. Also if the owner of said hand torqued reg/tank combo is vigilant and maintains the tank, the owner will know if the reg is becoming unscrewed and hopefully take corrective measures (depressurizing the tank and screwing the reg back in) prior to a disaster occuring.

Also.. despite the fact that I was poking fun at Raion with the Darwanism comment regarding tapping the fill nipple with a hammer to get the reg to rotate... fundamentaly if it is a light tap (and not a Bugs Bunny full on swing ala the short where he is testing munitions for duds) then you would think it would be okay... but I certainly wouldn't tap a fill nipple as it could damage threads, cause cracks in the nipple etc. which could cause later problems, but instead would use use a special wrench.

Using a hammer is one of those cheats that "pros" are using as a quick way to get the job done, that is not really harmful, but is not really safe.. and so far "hey no one's gotten hurt doing this" yet.

Anyways...

(steps down from lecturn)

Tanks are not toys... if you want to do your own work on your gun fine.. but if you are going to be taking apart a tank/reg combination, please either take a class on tank/reg maintainance from a certified instructor (certified as in by ASHTO or one of the Air/Gas organizations that certifies gas/welding supply shops) or learn the appropriate way, not the "but everybody else does it this way" method... I always heard that statement followed up with "If everybody else jumped off a bridge would you follow them?"

E

idkfa · 04-07-2008, 02:24 PM

^

I should have made my opinion more clear. I do not consider it a "hand tightening" vs. "over-torquing" issue, I consider it a "not using the tank unless the reg is entirely properly installed" vs. "hand tightening".

In my opinion, he should not be using the tank the way it is, regardless of the probability of danger. I would suggest contacting Air America and requesting, as a customer, the specifications for torque.

Schmitti · 04-07-2008, 02:46 PM

To which I say "yeah so"

I'm not trying to be a prick. But in reality. if he installs the reg on the tank and gives it a good guerilla twist (or the best extra squeeze that he can) and so long as he watches the tank whenever he removes it from the gun, what is the big safety difference between hand tightened (under torqued) and "properly torqued". I'd be more worried about "properly torqued" vs over torqued... which most people won't be able to do with their bare hands, unless using some kind of mechanical advantage (ie wrench or wrench and cheater bar)

As I stated above, the only thing you get with additional torque applied is more force applied between the contacting faces (and into the threaded portion of the reg). We can easily see that over tightening can be a problem.. take for example a screw.. you tighten it and tighten it and tighten it... next thing you know the screw has pulled itself down into what you were screwing it into leaving the head behind.. you've gone and sheared off the head.

While that may or may not happen with a tank reg, it's entirely possble that repeated overtorquing/tightening of a tank reg could cause shearing/failure of the stem.

Shearing of the stem through hand tightening is almost almost impossible... unless they only want a 5-20 lb torque on the thing.... and it's butter and not aluminum.

Anyways.... calling AA for torque specs will certainly not hurt at all and makes excellent sense... and I would favor that over the hammer tap method any day.

E

angrysasquatch · 04-07-2008, 02:58 PM

idkfa:
Air America is out of business. Like I was saying, I can decide to either undertorque it by doing it by hand, creating a disaster only if I didn't notice that "wow these threads are hard to turn" and "wow, this is about 10x more turns than I normally do, guess I'd better keep turning"; or I can overtorque it, possibly snapping off the reg neck and have it result in wht happened in the OP. Since I don't know the spec and have no means of finding it out, I opted to go for the first and be careful. No one works for Air America, due to the fact that they have no money to employ anybody with. I allso don't see how it is an almost gauranteed event that I kill someone with it, yes I would agree with you if I weren't aware of what was unthreading from what, but since I do, I strongly disagree. Knowing now that airsmiths you seem to trust so much use a hammer to tighten regs (and thus don't follow the torque spec) makes me actually feel that my air system, in my hands are less prone to failure than Joe Blow with a factory installed reg.

Schmitti:
I can only assume that he only uses a tap from the hammer, but the point remains that when people are told to use a device as barbaric as a hammer, they usually assume that they must be barbaric (Ie. bugs bunny munitions testing).

idkfa · 04-07-2008, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrysasquatch

idkfa:
Air America is out of business. Like I was saying, I can decide to either undertorque it by doing it by hand, creating a disaster only if I didn't notice that "wow these threads are hard to turn" and "wow, this is about 10x more turns than I normally do, guess I'd better keep turning"; or I can overtorque it, possibly snapping off the reg neck and have it result in wht happened in the OP. Since I don't know the spec and have no means of finding it out, I opted to go for the first and be careful. No one works for Air America, due to the fact that they have no money to employ anybody with. I allso don't see how it is an almost gauranteed event that I kill someone with it, yes I would agree with you if I weren't aware of what was unthreading from what, but since I do, I strongly disagree. Knowing now that airsmiths you seem to trust so much use a hammer to tighten regs (and thus don't follow the torque spec) makes me actually feel that my air system, in my hands are less prone to failure than Joe Blow with a factory installed reg.

I guess it comes down to whether or not you think that you should be taking the well being of everyone around you into your own hands? I would lean towards saying no, and I would resent anyone around me jeopardizing my safety because they "know what they are doing", but if you are honestly being careful, then I am grateful.

Jordan · 04-07-2008, 03:08 PM

Not a slight to any posters, but there are far too many novice players with access to both paintball equipment and power tools.

Clearly there was misuse involved with this reg/tank. Nobody should be allowed to work on this kind of stuff without some sort of license, yet we all do, because frankly there is nobody "qualified" to do it. I've put my own A/S tube in my CO2 tanks because I've got the tools, the knowledge, and a mistrust of the local pro-shops. I know I can do it right, and do it right the first time. And yes, I used loc-tite on my valve, but not a lot, just a few drops - enough to cover 2-3 threads, which is what you're supposed to do when using the stuff.

Jordan

04-07-2008, 01:21 PM	#62 (permalink)
DarkArmorPB VampiresTasteLikeChicken Join Date: May 2006 Location: St Louis area	From the damage inflicted to the gauge and the threaded screw in portion of the reg in the pictures shown, it does look like it was dropped on a concrete floor. Probably at just the right angle to put a hairline fracture in reg it self which either caused an immediate failure, or one at a later time. DA __________________ How They Make Paintballs. Total Greif Xtreme Paintball park / Milstadt Il. MCBrown Feedback PBNation Feedback

04-07-2008, 02:17 PM	#65 (permalink)
Schmitti Red=Moderator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Schen. NY	Actually (steps to lecturn) hand tightening a reg to a tank, while probably not the best method, is probably far more appropriate than over torquing the reg into the tank. Remember, the tank (metal tank with fiberglass/resin shell) is made to withstand pressure which incurs tension equally across surface of the tank.... while a rotational force at the collar of the tank can provide a combination compressive/tensional force in the material which could cause failure around the tank collar. Also... if a reg is screwed into a tank the full inch or so that you screw it in.. how is going to seperate and rocket away? The only thing applying additional torque to the reg causes is frictional forces between the contacting horizontal surfaces of the reg and tank collar... not additional "super gripping forces" along the threads. So long as the reg stays screwed into the tank, the reg/tank are not going to rocket off in any direction. Also if the owner of said hand torqued reg/tank combo is vigilant and maintains the tank, the owner will know if the reg is becoming unscrewed and hopefully take corrective measures (depressurizing the tank and screwing the reg back in) prior to a disaster occuring. Also.. despite the fact that I was poking fun at Raion with the Darwanism comment regarding tapping the fill nipple with a hammer to get the reg to rotate... fundamentaly if it is a light tap (and not a Bugs Bunny full on swing ala the short where he is testing munitions for duds) then you would think it would be okay... but I certainly wouldn't tap a fill nipple as it could damage threads, cause cracks in the nipple etc. which could cause later problems, but instead would use use a special wrench. Using a hammer is one of those cheats that "pros" are using as a quick way to get the job done, that is not really harmful, but is not really safe.. and so far "hey no one's gotten hurt doing this" yet. Anyways... (steps down from lecturn) Tanks are not toys... if you want to do your own work on your gun fine.. but if you are going to be taking apart a tank/reg combination, please either take a class on tank/reg maintainance from a certified instructor (certified as in by ASHTO or one of the Air/Gas organizations that certifies gas/welding supply shops) or learn the appropriate way, not the "but everybody else does it this way" method... I always heard that statement followed up with "If everybody else jumped off a bridge would you follow them?" E __________________ Gone fishing

04-07-2008, 02:24 PM	#66 (permalink)
idkfa Loose Cannon Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: St. John's, NL, Canada	^ I should have made my opinion more clear. I do not consider it a "hand tightening" vs. "over-torquing" issue, I consider it a "not using the tank unless the reg is entirely properly installed" vs. "hand tightening". In my opinion, he should not be using the tank the way it is, regardless of the probability of danger. I would suggest contacting Air America and requesting, as a customer, the specifications for torque. __________________ MCB Feedback The PhOG Feedback eBay Feedback

04-07-2008, 02:46 PM	#67 (permalink)
Schmitti Red=Moderator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Schen. NY	To which I say "yeah so" I'm not trying to be a prick. But in reality. if he installs the reg on the tank and gives it a good guerilla twist (or the best extra squeeze that he can) and so long as he watches the tank whenever he removes it from the gun, what is the big safety difference between hand tightened (under torqued) and "properly torqued". I'd be more worried about "properly torqued" vs over torqued... which most people won't be able to do with their bare hands, unless using some kind of mechanical advantage (ie wrench or wrench and cheater bar) As I stated above, the only thing you get with additional torque applied is more force applied between the contacting faces (and into the threaded portion of the reg). We can easily see that over tightening can be a problem.. take for example a screw.. you tighten it and tighten it and tighten it... next thing you know the screw has pulled itself down into what you were screwing it into leaving the head behind.. you've gone and sheared off the head. While that may or may not happen with a tank reg, it's entirely possble that repeated overtorquing/tightening of a tank reg could cause shearing/failure of the stem. Shearing of the stem through hand tightening is almost almost impossible... unless they only want a 5-20 lb torque on the thing.... and it's butter and not aluminum. Anyways.... calling AA for torque specs will certainly not hurt at all and makes excellent sense... and I would favor that over the hammer tap method any day. E __________________ Gone fishing

04-07-2008, 03:08 PM	#70 (permalink)
Jordan This space is vacant. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Vineland, Ontario	Not a slight to any posters, but there are far too many novice players with access to both paintball equipment and power tools. Clearly there was misuse involved with this reg/tank. Nobody should be allowed to work on this kind of stuff without some sort of license, yet we all do, because frankly there is nobody "qualified" to do it. I've put my own A/S tube in my CO2 tanks because I've got the tools, the knowledge, and a mistrust of the local pro-shops. I know I can do it right, and do it right the first time. And yes, I used loc-tite on my valve, but not a lot, just a few drops - enough to cover 2-3 threads, which is what you're supposed to do when using the stuff. Jordan __________________ *POG Member #952* Currently owned: Typhoon-Hurricane conversion #P1710 My Feedback: http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/f...-feedback.html

04-07-2008, 12:20 PM	#61 (permalink)
angrysasquatch Newbie Join Date: Oct 2006	Raion- I think that tapping it with a hammer to tighten it is a very careless way to do it. By tappin it with a hammer, you DON'T know what you are infact torquing the reg to. That type of thing could very well have made this failure happen, tapped too hard with the hammer, overtorqued the reg, and it failed as a result. Things are torqued on with a torque wrench, a precise peice of equipment meant to torque things on at a specified value. I'm sure that if the engineer responsible for the reg saw the techs hammering as a means of torquing it, he'd have a fit. That said, I have put a new tank on my reg and did not locktite or torque it, since Air America had a policy of "don't touch the reg" and didn't give me a torque value for it. I simply did it as tight as I could by hand and am always aware which section of the reg is uncrewing from what. And I don't lend out my gun to anyone who isn't aware of such dangers. DRG- that is certainly possible, but i would expect that the ASA threads would strip a little or the frame/drop would soak up most of the impact leaving the tank threads fine.

04-07-2008, 02:58 PM	#68 (permalink)
angrysasquatch Newbie Join Date: Oct 2006	idkfa: Air America is out of business. Like I was saying, I can decide to either undertorque it by doing it by hand, creating a disaster only if I didn't notice that "wow these threads are hard to turn" and "wow, this is about 10x more turns than I normally do, guess I'd better keep turning"; or I can overtorque it, possibly snapping off the reg neck and have it result in wht happened in the OP. Since I don't know the spec and have no means of finding it out, I opted to go for the first and be careful. No one works for Air America, due to the fact that they have no money to employ anybody with. I allso don't see how it is an almost gauranteed event that I kill someone with it, yes I would agree with you if I weren't aware of what was unthreading from what, but since I do, I strongly disagree. Knowing now that airsmiths you seem to trust so much use a hammer to tighten regs (and thus don't follow the torque spec) makes me actually feel that my air system, in my hands are less prone to failure than Joe Blow with a factory installed reg. Schmitti: I can only assume that he only uses a tap from the hammer, but the point remains that when people are told to use a device as barbaric as a hammer, they usually assume that they must be barbaric (Ie. bugs bunny munitions testing).