General

[DPrekel]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/biztech....ap/index.html

Hey, Microsoft. how about hiring Americans?

[Wycke]

Originally Posted by DPrekel

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/biztech....ap/index.html

Hey, Microsoft. how about highering Americans?

Maybe because, unlike many Americans, most of these foreigners know how to spell "hiring"?


But, seriously, the fact is that American students (saddled with one of the least effective public education systems in the world) just can't compete with those from countries where "hard work" and "studying" aren't dirty words. Countries where higher learning is considered an honor rather than a burden. I'm around college students all day. Every day. I can't begin to tell you how lazy, incompetent, spoiled, ungrateful and just plain dumb the vast majority of them are.

[DPrekel]

Originally Posted by Wycke

Maybe because, unlike many Americans, most of these foreigners know how to spell "hiring"?

Is it because kids don't win or lose when they play sports? Or that their parents do everything for them? (wow, I sound old).

[Wycke]

Originally Posted by DPrekel

Is it because kids don't win or lose when they play sports? Or that their parents do everything for them? (wow, I sound old).

More the latter. As an example, every incoming student has to "pick up" their user accounts after they've been officially accepted and before they can take course placement exams. To do this, they must go to a specific website and enter their Date of Birth, Home Zip Code, and Student ID # (which is printed in their formal acceptance letter), then accept the cryptic, randomly-generated password we give them or choose one themselves. The help desk gets at least 2 or 3 dozen phone calls a day from the students' parents who complain that we're unreasonably burdening their dear, sweet child and that even they (the parents, that is) can't complete a simple, 3 step process with professional guidance.

OK, maybe I'm making too many generalizations. There are some students who actually have a few brain cells to rub together. Until their first frat party, at least...

And don't worry, my wife calls me the world's oldest 33 year old whenever I start talking like this...

[Azzy]

I agree with both of you, and Im only 26.

Now does that make me old, or make you feel older?

[WilD]

Originally Posted by Wycke

Maybe because, unlike many Americans, most of these foreigners know how to spell "hiring"?


But, seriously, the fact is that American students (saddled with one of the least effective public education systems in the world) just can't compete with those from countries where "hard work" and "studying" aren't dirty words. Countries where higher learning is considered an honor rather than a burden. I'm around college students all day. Every day. I can't begin to tell you how lazy, incompetent, spoiled, ungrateful and just plain dumb the vast majority of them are.

I don't believe that at all. Quite frankly, I find it insulting to suggest that Americans are not capable of taking on challenging technical positions. There are plenty of us who can. In fact, most can't even find steady work. This can get dangerously political very fast, but the "need" behind these visas is the need to suppress wages. Many young Americans are suffering from a great deal of apathy due to the fact that working hard and pursuing advanced education is simply not becoming worthwhile when jobs are scarce and salaries are falling. If the trends continue, there will be few jobs for Americans to do, period. Most will be off shored by corporations seeking higher profits. Why waste your time working or at vigorous study when you will never have an opportunity to make a decent living anyway. The end is near!

That is my bit of "the sky is falling" rhetoric for the day.

[Cunha]

Originally Posted by WilD

I don't believe that at all. Quite frankly, I find it insulting to suggest that Americans are not capable of taking on challenging technical positions. There are plenty of us who can. In fact, most can't even find steady work. This can get dangerously political very fast, but the "need" behind these visas is the need to suppress wages. Many young Americans are suffering from a great deal of apathy due to the fact that working hard and pursuing advanced education is simply not becoming worthwhile when jobs are scarce and salaries are falling. If the trends continue, there will be few jobs for Americans to do, period. Most will be off shored by corporations seeking higher profits. Why waste your time working or at vigorous study when you will never have an opportunity to make a decent living anyway. The end is near!

That is my bit of "the sky is falling" rhetoric for the day.

I agree with this type of thinking.

Working a POS job and remaining independent of burdens like a family and trying to strike it rich with some successful entrepreneurial enterprise is starting to seem like the only way to go, for a "youngster" like me.

And I hear more and more stories of tech types that are having a hard time finding jobs. Why the devil do we need visas when many skilled Americans are having a hard time finding a job in their own country. Who will grant visa's for us?

[Kindred]

"Our real preference here is that there not be a cap at all."

Now THAT is a scary concept.
While I'm no fan of our public education system, I don't think we can place the blame on un-qualified candidates. I've worked for several different companies who were involved in outsourcing of various magnitudes, and there is one, single reason for doing it......MONEY.

Not to say that these visa candidates are UNqualified, but they are absolutly the most "cost effective" solution.
Sorry, that's just the way business works, h1b candidates really are the low bid option in this field.

Now, why is the US flooded with visa-holding-employees, while it is almost impossible for an American to get a job in another country?
Why should we have ANY h1b's if there's a single out-of-work American qualified for the job?

[Wycke]

Originally Posted by WilD

I find it insulting to suggest that Americans are not capable

I'm not saying it's a question of capabilities. I'm a firm believer that a motivated, determined, hard working individual can achieve just about anything they set their mind to. My point is that, by and large, there aren't many such individuals among this country's youth. The American dream, it seems, is to make an insane amount of money by doing as little as possible of the least complex work imaginable - this is what many kids aspire to.

For example, my niece has always been one of the brightest, most intelligent kids I knew. Straight A's all through grade school & high school. Could have gone to pretty much any college she wanted to and even had a few academic scholarships lined up. Sometime during her senior year, she just decided she didn't want to work that hard anymore. Now, 4 years out of high school, her greatest aspiration is the make it to assistant manager at Office Depot.

So, yes, Americans are capable of doing these jobs, but that's just not enough. Tech firms don't hire people based strictly on what they're capable of...they want people who they know are going to work hard and produce results, and far too many Americans don't place any value in hard work.

[Schmitti]

Yes the all mighty dollar. That and being politically correct.

At my last job we hired several folks with work visas. Why? Because they were cheaper than other engineers with the same age and experience. I worked with one engineer that came over from South Korea to get his doctorate and at the time had a student visa... and then got a work visa when he got his job with my former employer.... they treated him like crap and payed him extremely poorly, even though he had 10 years of experience, his masters and his Phd. When he finally got his green card on his path towards citizenship he told them pay me better or I'm gone. for a while he was making less than me.

Now he was an integral part of my design team and he never plans on leaving the US, nor does he send money home, except as occasional gifts to his mother. His family (wife and daughter) are an established part of the community.

Now several of the other employees... well they basically flat out told me that they were here until their visas expried. In that time they were going to learn as much as they could, send as much money home as they could, and when the visa was up they were going back home to their arranged marriage and would start a company and do work for companies here in the US.

Gee what graditude.

But at the same time I didn't find some of them to be any more hard working than anyone else.... almost as if they thought that just be having spent time in the US the riches would just land in their lap when they got home.

I could go on for a while on this topic, but I will leave it with the above personal experience.

E