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Old 06-12-2011, 01:16 PM   #4341 (permalink)
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Rant? Defamatory and mean? I'm only stating what is revealing itself to be true. And I'm stating things that some of you guys are too scared to post. Don't like it, sue me.

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Old 06-12-2011, 01:23 PM   #4342 (permalink)
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Yes it is inaccurate.

I was able to email them, and got answers right away, throughout the day, +1 for availability.

I have heard from people who have called that have been able to speak to Metadyne people directly. Also, from the Havoc pre-order (which yes, also had problems), they took whatever steps they could to make it right for their customers. +1 for customer service.

Three, they based the pump on the Havoc, which is a tested proven design for the valve, no reason they wouldn't have expected it to work in the pump too, unfortunately that wasn't the case and they had to make modifications after they announced the gun. I'm sure you've never had to modify a prototype? +1 for making sure we get functioning guns not doorstops.

Four, CCM has been building the same basic gun for what, 8 years with minor changes to their design/bodies. They have a shop and personnel who have done the same steps over and over, and a dedicated staff. Not that Metadyne doesn't, but they're also bringing a new gun to the market, their very first one (since the Havoc is technically a launcher), why not cut them some slack? +1 for bringing out something new.

Finally, it's moderately irritating to have a company disparaged by someone who is a dis-interested third party. I take issue that the poster, 808star, feels the need to come into a thread and make wild accusations that are simply not true.

p.s. As I would rather not get banned, any further responses or pontifications can be made via PMs, where we can each speak our mind.
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:32 PM   #4343 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 808star View Post
Rant? Defamatory and mean? I'm only stating what is revealing itself to be true. And I'm stating things that some of you guys are too scared to post. Don't like it, sue me.

Brandon C
Ok, thats your opinion, and your entitled to that. But in my opinion, I see a company that is working very hard to produce a new marker, and be loyal to those who preordered. In truth, they didn't expect this many preorders, they expected 30, and with that number the march date might have happened. So yes they were alittle optimistic with their shipping dates, but so what, many of us got an awsome deal on this gun. And I am ready to recive this marker when it is ready.

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Old 06-12-2011, 02:52 PM   #4344 (permalink)
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This all said, there should be a general openness about procuring funds. A prototype run should be paid for as a prototype run. A production run can be preordered, but there should be reparations if it goes beyond the specified date of delivery. Just because this is a niche industry, does not mean manufacturers should be exempt from good business practices.

Metadyne used "production" payments to fund development. They had no idea when the release date would be. They did not even have a fully-functional prototype of the design.

Compare this to the Avratech Falcon. Prototypes were released, those receiving prototypes knew they were called such, and debugging occurred in contact with the users. The production then went into order... and was delayed by the relationship with the machine shop.

Now look at CCM, Eclipse, or similar large manufacturers. They quietly release prototypes, with no promised release date of the final product. When they go into production, they do a full release in a timely and controlled fashion, where everyone gets their gear when expected.

The only step past this is a lean business. When a business has done enough work to ensure success, they will create a prototype batch, then a second "production spec" batch. Once the bugs are worked out, they will wait for orders before producing, and have capacity to make a full production run within x number of days, so an order places will be filled in as many days, on demand. Inventory is kept to a minimum, and machining capabilities are sufficient that tools are simply left fixtured for the next batch.


Metadyne broke the first rule: once you have the money, deliver the promised product in a timely fashion. That said, it's altogether too common for small businesses- and part of the reason most businesses fail.
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Old 06-12-2011, 03:31 PM   #4345 (permalink)
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Early payments for the as yet unfinished final product funds development in plenty of industries. Software is the most blatant. Construction another blatant example.

Metadyne has not been unreachable. Those who email or call them have gotten responses. Just because they don't have a facebook monkey with daily updates is no reason to crucify them. Do you update customers every day over facebook? Most companies do not.

Metadyne has not only improved on their initial design but have added loads of options for the preorders. 45 frames, too many barrel options to count... trying to work to get some people custom anno, instead of just forcing everyone to black or blue, Open class feed ... there's likely one or two small things I missed as well. This was done because of close communication with the pre-order customers.

This also wasn't a fixed product preorder. This is much more like a custom product pre-order. To those that didn't realize this ahead of time, I'm sorry they feel tricked. The information for the pre-order was released on MCB. A forum where many people are familiar with the "cutsom order, then wait, and wait, and wait, till it's done" approach. If a load of people were to order Nasty Typhoons from PPS, guess what... we'd need to pay ahead, and wait till they were all built. Bringing up CCM is interesting. But CCM is the exception to custom paintball markers, NOT the rule. Would it be nice if more places did business like CCM? Hell yeah. But even with CCM there is a wait. And even with CCM there have been delays from time to time. It's not the instant gratification from ANS gear of an in-stock marker. A pretty close comparison to Metadyne on this would be the mag feed kits from RAP4. People put down money knowing it was not completed. Personally, I feel metadyne has communicated just as much if not more than RAP4.

No one should have been ordering this as their only or first marker... if they did, they made a mistake. If your refs jumped on this as their only marker I commend you on recommending they avoid the pre-order (actually, ANY pre-order).
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Old 06-12-2011, 04:09 PM   #4346 (permalink)
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Didn't Metadyne have a working gun but then got delayed from making changes on the design that customers wanted. Then from more testing, a velocity issue was found so the design was changed to incorporate a hammer. Primary Machine downed, anno times, and I think it was said each one was going to be tested individually to ensure operation.
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Old 06-12-2011, 04:54 PM   #4347 (permalink)
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Oh, Voodoo, I agree that they've communicated well enough. It's a matter of timeliness. CCM is a great business model, that is considered by many to be an "ideal"- low inventory, consistent production times, built to order. It's high speed, low drag, with very few chances for unforeseen circumstances. It wouldn't surprise me if they had redundant machining setups.

PPS, Metadyne, and a few other shops are a model that's less good. They get a product out there, but it leads to frustration along the way. It would be better to get the bugs out before starting a preorder. The need to add a hammer should have been discovered prior to the preorder. But as you said, the software industry does this all the time...

I'm merely stating the best model for businesses, and how certain companies who adhere to the model do quite well, and can command higher prices for the expertise, while others will be considered second-tier.
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Old 06-12-2011, 04:56 PM   #4348 (permalink)
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Ok...

So I don't know about everyone else, but I'm still waiting on a reply for the custom ano. And a reply for two emails about additional parts.
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Old 06-12-2011, 05:16 PM   #4349 (permalink)
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Call them. That is the best way I have found to reach them. I added to my order with a quick phone rather than wait for an email.
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Old 06-12-2011, 05:24 PM   #4350 (permalink)
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The hinge trigger did not have the velocity problem that required a hammer. The hammer came about after the slider was introduced, to give consistent output regardless of how slow or fast you pulled the trigger.
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