mcarterbrown.com  

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-01-2012, 08:46 PM   #8561 (permalink)
ur my sister
 
joedirt199's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: St Louis

yes lilshank's thumper is a freak of nature and has had little in the way of problems. i will say that when i ran mine on co2 last weekend the velocity jumped around a little more than i would have liked. may have to eliminate the internal reg and set it up for HPA only. will have to see again a different day.
__________________
God created Police so Firemen would have HEROES
In God we trust, everyone else gets searched
9mm will make you weak!

MY FEEDBACK
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/f...-feedback.html

CCM Works Sniper, Thumper, Kingman Hammer Low Pressure with Vertical ASA, TPX, Ion mech/closed bolt
joedirt199 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 08:50 PM   #8562 (permalink)
Sidewinder Hoarder
 
toymachine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Fascist Valley

yea, although no co2, I experienced that problem when trying to use the internal reg for fine tuning my later thumper.

I've heard about a handful of totally function, as stock, thumpers out there owned by different folks. so it's not just lilshank... there are other lucky bastards out there too... I gotta figure out what they're doing to score karma points
toymachine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 08:29 PM   #8563 (permalink)
Closer to home.....
 
Zondo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008

CCM Fan
Quote:
Originally Posted by toymachine View Post
yea, although no co2, I experienced that problem when trying to use the internal reg for fine tuning my later thumper.

I've heard about a handful of totally function, as stock, thumpers out there owned by different folks. so it's not just lilshank... there are other lucky bastards out there too... I gotta figure out what they're doing to score karma points
Well, I have a V3 piston and hadn't done anything to it other than adjust the velocity and use Leland 12 grams. I played an entire day and had no issues other than the balls pinching every now and again.

__________________

My Feedback: Here on MCB BigEvilOnline Automags.org PaintBallNation
Zondo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 08:41 PM   #8564 (permalink)
ur my sister
 
joedirt199's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: St Louis

i figured out that if you trim some of the top of the detent off it helps with the pinching. allows the ball to fall further down into the breech instead of off to the sides. i rubbed mine against some soft sand paper to give it a slight curved top and to take the squared edges and to bring the height down some.
__________________
God created Police so Firemen would have HEROES
In God we trust, everyone else gets searched
9mm will make you weak!

MY FEEDBACK
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/f...-feedback.html

CCM Works Sniper, Thumper, Kingman Hammer Low Pressure with Vertical ASA, TPX, Ion mech/closed bolt
joedirt199 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 01:02 PM   #8565 (permalink)
Sidewinder Hoarder
 
toymachine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Fascist Valley

^good to know!

as to "turning off" the internal reg... it's a matter off putting something behind it to stop movement. I forget exactly the length of my little nub of delrin I used, but it worked well.

I theorize: how the internal reg on a thumper works:

Okay, so, the reg piston:


Bottom-most o-ring is the reg piston face o-ring; the other two are what I will call the spool valve/off o-rings

One o-ring acts as a piston face, and a spring behind that applying a certain amount of force. You also have two small seals that act as basically a little spool/off valve. As pressurized gas is applied to the large seal/piston face, the spool/off valve eventually catches the input (input and output are both between large seal and first of the small seals; once the piston has, against the force of the spring, traveled a certain distance, the input it shut off, trapped between the two small seals). The more you adjust the spring, say clockwise, the more pressure required to move the piston/turn it off, so the higher the regs output pressure would be. And vice versa, if you lower the spring tension by screwing the adjuster out, counterclockwise, you decrease the pressure needed to move the piston. It works because, when the input is caught between the two small seals on the piston, it's the spring holding it back, against the force of a certain amount of air (the decreased, reg's output pressure) - the more your increase the force required to move the spring, the more the air pressure needs to increase to hold it in equalibrium. Before the two small seals shut off the input, the input is supply the air. But once the air pressure reaches a certain amount - i.e. moves the piston face a certain amount, so that the input gets trapped between the small seals - the input is shut off and therefore only a certain volume/pressure of air is allowed to pass through the reg...

Off the top of my head I don't know of any other reg designs like this. It is ingenious in its simplicity. Of course, I haven't had much luck with it, but still. Very cool design.

If you all didn't quite understand what I was trying to communicate, I don't blame you.

Pictures of course would be ideal, but I'll at least try and get some sort of hand drawn diagram setup.

Now, what I think we really need, is to get someone with mod/admin privileges to condense some of this newfound info on getting thumpers to work well into the first post (or maybe that of the other thumper thread)?

EDIT: This would have been SO much easier if I had any CAD program on this computer... Anyways, this should make things easier to understand.
The diagram on the left illustrates the position of the reg piston when marker is NOT PRESSURIZED. The one of the right illustrates what the piston looks like when the marker IS pressurized. Enjoi!


Now, it should be more obvious, that an easy way to disable to internal reg on a Thumper is by putting a bit of delrin (or whatever) rod where the spring would be. You want the reg piston from moving, thus keeping it from closing off the input. I had also forgot to mention that, beside adding that spacer to prevent much movement, I also removed the middle o-rings. Only the middle o-ring can be removed, otherwise, by removing the ones on either end of the reg piston, you'll create a leak (i.e. neither end of the reg piston housing is seal with anything but those two o-rings).

Disclaimer: I'm not perfect. If this isn't how the reg piston works, well, I hope someone will point that out.

EDIT: After a bit more thought with some wine this evening, I've come to the conclusion that, indeed, with quality o-rings (of the proper durometer/material/size) a good polish and a more reasonable input pressure (say, less than 600psi, but not less than 350psi absolute min - keep in mind the marker needs 200-300psi to operate, or at least this seems to be the case), the internal reg could work quite well. If I get a chance to work at a polishing wheel or borrow a dremel and proper head, I'll have to try this. Now, I just wish I knew more about o-ring durometer and material qualities in terms of what works best with CO2 vs HPA at described pressures, and with what lubes...

Last edited by toymachine; 10-04-2012 at 01:37 AM.
toymachine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 02:00 PM   #8566 (permalink)
Shop Smart,Shop S-Mart
 
doc Zox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006

I assumed it was a scaled piston system that was cribbed off the havoc...


http://www.mcarterbrown.com/manuals/Metadyne/Havoc.pdf
doc Zox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 02:38 PM   #8567 (permalink)
Sidewinder Hoarder
 
toymachine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Fascist Valley

I think that was their design. As far as I know, the pneumatics are essentially the same, in terms of the concepts behind them. Obviously the hammer assembly is new, but the theory of the internal reg and the main piston should be the same between the Havoc and Thumper.

Damn me and my typoos!!!
toymachine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 02:39 PM   #8568 (permalink)
US ARMY SIG CORPS
 
redlaser666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Spanaway, Washington

thanks for the description and drawings TOYMACHINE, they look prety acurate to me. Since it does seem like a spool then this regulators may be suffering from sticking issues kind of like FSDO on spoolvalved guns. I have noticed that the internal finish on my thumper is not totaly smooth, jut a bit better than the outside dust finish.

Im thinking of doing a high polish on the internal walls and using higher durometer o-rings to see the effect on that reg. Anyone else tried something like this ??
__________________
My Feedback!
redlaser666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 02:46 PM   #8569 (permalink)
Sidewinder Hoarder
 
toymachine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Fascist Valley

Yea, somewhere a million pages back or something, a couple people tried polishing their internal reg piston with positive results (or at least, most who tried and gave feedback seemed to have some success, although I do remember that not everyone who tried this did - I think most people seemed to benefit most fromt a good polish, new o-rings and shimming the spring). I wouldn't be surprised if the sticking issue or whatever had more to do with crappy/mismatched o-rings? Mixed bag, I'd think.

I wonder is a better spring might work, too? No idea though, as I've never really used the internal reg. Oh, and technically speaking, if that is indeed how the reg works, it really is an ingenious design! Technically, it would work with any input pressure, whether 800psi or 500psi, assuming the input is at least the equivalent of the necessary operating pressure. I mean, in a very real way, it's very much like those "balanced" regs out there (2L, the late Evolve reg, god rest its soul, etc. etc.). I mean, I don't know that much about regs, but I did have a regulator phase once. Didn't come up with anything new, but had a lot of fun incorporating multiple reg designs into a single reg. Anyways, that's for another thread I guess...

Also forgot to mention, with my internal reg, not only did I use an insert to hold it in place, I also removed the middle o-ring.

Last edited by toymachine; 10-04-2012 at 01:18 AM.
toymachine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 07:59 AM   #8570 (permalink)
Closer to home.....
 
Zondo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008

CCM Fan
Quote:
Originally Posted by redlaser666 View Post
thanks for the description and drawings TOYMACHINE, they look prety acurate to me. Since it does seem like a spool then this regulators may be suffering from sticking issues kind of like FSDO on spoolvalved guns. I have noticed that the internal finish on my thumper is not totaly smooth, jut a bit better than the outside dust finish.

Im thinking of doing a high polish on the internal walls and using higher durometer o-rings to see the effect on that reg. Anyone else tried something like this ??
I know some have tried polishing the reg, but I don't think anyone has tried the internal walls. Not in front of mine right now to take a look in mine to compare...
__________________

My Feedback: Here on MCB BigEvilOnline Automags.org PaintBallNation
Zondo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  mcarterbrown.com » Paintball » The Armory » Pump Markers

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO
© MCB Network LLC