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Old 03-31-2013, 07:37 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by oldironmudder View Post
I know I can get it better but I dont have the time nor play enough to completely justify it. Umm... Dean told me he bought it around 1990-1991. I got it a few years ago.
Everytime it can be better : -).

Edited: but with your #8 you are on 393 Joules, so you are even better and all shoots are here safely below 300 fps.

Edited again: the #8 was really the best - at least along KE conversion. The graph:



Nearly the same (a little better, but very similar even in progres of the velocity during shooting) like know results of PPS Superstocker... but the Superstocker has not reg.

Last edited by 3022; 04-15-2013 at 05:58 AM.
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:03 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Got more numbers for ya. This one started low because I just put the gun back together. I was turning it up as I shoot for the first 6 shots.

RTP Viper
...
Great. Again thank you very much.

...and even when ignoring the 44-45 shoot it gives total ~447 Joules. Really very impressive.

Edit: velocity graph, comparsion with PPS Superstocker:


Last edited by 3022; 04-01-2013 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 04-01-2013, 03:01 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Great. Again thank you very much.

...and even when ignoring the 44-45 shoot it gives total ~447 Joules. Really very impressive.
Yeah, I don't know how Rick does it but Vipers are the best 12 gram guns I've ever played with.
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Old 04-01-2013, 09:17 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Here are the only one values of Palmerized PGP which I know (taken before years from PGPOG thread),in comparsion with my best homemade tunned PGP:



I mus say that I have doubts about these values - they are on the level of today best markers with regs and optimally selected interchangable barrels. They imho do not look dependable for short barreled, and comercionally tunned marker. The result what I can get is significantly lower, even when Im using methods what Palmer surely do not uses on thier comercional markers (he surely do not uses such light hammers and so heavy preloadet hammer spring). Because these Palmerized PGP values have been published before years on PGPOG, it can be perhaps possible that they are little overhyped...

Im waiting for independent check.

...but when I see now the RTP Viper results, then these PGP values do not look so unrealistic. But still I have doubts.



Edited 3.5.2103:
even along PM from toymachine ("... I have a Palmerized PG ... yesterday got 38 shots using FSR breech loaded, per 12g, avg 280fps (and above 250fps last shot), not including first three shots (over 300fps) ...") it looks that we should take the old measurement from PGPOG really seriously - 38 shoots avg 280 fps should be more than total 430 J KE per powerlet.

Last edited by 3022; 05-03-2013 at 03:47 AM.
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Old 04-01-2013, 09:24 AM   #25 (permalink)
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I have suplemented here some velocity graphs in some the older posts of me.

Additionally the all velocity measurements / results can be downloadet now here in Excell sheet:
http://www.pgp.mysteria.cz/docasne/1...Efficiency.xls
graphs and the links on sources are here includet.

Note: the KE calculations along fps in this sheet are not absolutely excact because of the way how are they calculated (in one cell, I was not able find how make that without rounding). But the differences are very small.
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Old 04-01-2013, 09:37 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Yeah, I don't know how Rick does it but Vipers are the best 12 gram guns I've ever played with.
I was not able judge the efficiency (but your actual result speaks for oneself), but after seeing photos and reviews in old magazines I was only sure with that they were the nicest and maximally tricked out Sheridans what I have seen.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:45 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Total energy is more important than shot count
Glad to see someone using energy instead of shot count for efficiency determination. I have been posting about this for years. Unfortunately testers like Punkworks want easy to perform tests, even if the results are useless. They feel any data is better than no data.

You might find some posts over there where I explain using 'average' velocity will add error to the calculation, but average ball mass does not.

Do you calculate the energy of each shot then find the sum total, or do you use the average velocity and multiply the resultant average energy by number of shots?

What ball mass do you use? I have regularly seen ball mass from 2.8g to greater than 3.1g. That appears to be enough to move some of your efficiency rankings around.

It's unfortunate people are not willing to weigh a bag of paint before they shoot it.
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:29 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 3022 View Post
Everytime it can be better : -).

Edited: but with your #8 you are on 393 Joules, so you are even better and all shoots are here safely below 300 fps.

Edited again: the #8 was really the best - at least along KE conversion. The graph:

http://www.pgp.mysteria.cz/docasne/o...rling_no_8.gif

Nearly the same (a little better, but very similar even in progres of the velocity during shooting) like know results of PPS Superstocker... but the Superstocker has not reg.
All of those numbers in the halfass chart do NOT have a reg. Straight spring tuning.
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:08 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I think its been posted somewhere but I can't find it. Do we know the joules per gram of CO2? As in, what the maximum potential joules we can get from a 12g?
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Old 04-02-2013, 07:20 AM   #30 (permalink)
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... They feel any data is better than no data.

...

Do you calculate the energy of each shot then find the sum total, or do you use the average velocity and multiply the resultant average energy by number of shots?

...

What ball mass do you use?

...

It's unfortunate people are not willing to weigh a bag of paint before they shoot it.
I will likewise any data, but only when I can not get better data. But when you can get better data regulary, then you should use the better data imho.

Im using both methods of KE calculations - calculation with the KE of every shoot is more accurate, but the calculation along avelerage velocity of shoots you can put in one cell in Excel, so when you will put more measurement data in one sheet and let them here to be auto-calculated it is better use this method, even when he is not so accurate (here is the rounding effect with every shoot - but the final difference between of them is commonly small, only few Joules total, 2-5 or so).

Im using the maximall alowed mass in paintball (3.2g) for the calculations, because I have thinked that it is inpractival to weight the paintballs. I was likewise not clever enought to weight the whole sack with all 500 paintballs : -(. Thank you for that imput. But there can be problem likewise some problems: the proper count in the bag can be not exact and the weight changes with humidity absorbtion with the paint in time. So you can weight 490 or 510 paintballs (what will make ~2% difference) and they can change thier weight a little between the while when you weight the whole new bag and you shoot the last paint from them.
But most important was for me, is that only very few peoples are able to give you the results including the weight of paintballs what they have used. Sorry...

But again, it is possible that it perhaps it do not helps a lot when you know this value - because I think that there are more important factors connected with paint that together affecting the performance more than the paint weight - exact paint diameter, dimension accuracy, friction and flexibility - and some of these can be not so easy measured (who will make control protocol of used paintballs...).

"Scientifically" the even with the KE calculations you put a little inaccuracy in the values - because you can assume that accelerate the object on the highter velocity takes more energy that is the KE of the object raised - for example I think that there is some rule in aircraft industry that you need raise the power of the engine of aircraft two times to get the velocity highter for about 20% (im not sure with the exact values)... the aircrafts moving faster than paintballs and they have larger mass, but still the markers with highter velocities are here theoretically disadvantaged a little opposite the markers with lower velocities but with the same total KE / 12g.

But generally important is here not have the best possible accuracy, but have the best accuracy what is practical for us, to be able compare the real word results without big inaccuracy.

Last edited by 3022; 04-02-2013 at 07:26 AM.
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