Paintball

[CJOttawa]

Originally Posted by Gogged_Gurl

low pressure paint's in a HP set up? the lapco guts just like carter guts dont have a TPC. the TPC is a phantom only design. the lapco just has a open velocity adjuster so you would think it would be tougher on paint than it is.

Ha too true Gogged Gurl!

Originally Posted by splattttttt

The Redux is Phantom threaded, right.

GG will be able to collaborate with me on this issue with Phantom, and how they to sometimes break more paint than their closed bolt cocker threaded systems like the ones found on the Carter's and Gargoyles to name just but two lol.

Sadly no on the Redux barrel threads! It's something custom, not sure what. I've tried a Phantom barrel with no success.
EDIT: we now have confirmation of the Redux barrel threads. 7/8"-18tpi with custom milling for the return spring, slide and Freak insert.

[Gogged_Gurl]

perfect example of that splattt. i had both my garg and phantom at the SC game and the phantom was destroying ultra marbs. the gargoyle not one break with the same paint. how does that make any sense LOL

cj the only thing i can think of is that the paint is the big issue,not so much our old gun design. the shells keep getting thinner and more brittle

[ironchef97]

Originally Posted by Gogged_Gurl

perfect example of that splattt. i had both my garg and phantom at the SC game and the phantom was destroying ultra marbs. the gargoyle not one break with the same paint. how does that make any sense LOL

cj the only thing i can think of is that the paint is the big issue,not so much our old gun design. the shells keep getting thinner and more brittle

Gargoyle has the same internals as a phantom!!! Same barrel too! what the heck is going on here...?
Maybe the SC feed screw on the phantom was too long...doing what I like to call "scratching my balls" when the gun is fired?

CJ, what about drilling the hole in the TPC to be BIGGER, that might disperse the airflow more evenly. With the 3/8" hole you (and I) use, that might be directing too much HP air (assuming 12 gram use) onto too small an area of the ball...although some air will also escape via the angled ports on the phantom TPC.

I am thinking...on Carter TPCs and lapcos, they have either a venturi or open face...but no angled ports. What if you plugged the ports in the phantom TPC up (with jb weld or something), and enlarged the hole to as large as possible?

[CJOttawa]

Wow. Now I'm super curious about the valve bolt system in Gargoyle.
There has to be *something* in the gun that lets it release air more gently than other markers.

My Redux completely destroys Marblizer or X-Ball Gold/Hellfire, both brittle paint.

I'm starting to think this has less to do with the short barrel (more gas needed) and more to do with TPC/bolt/power-tube/valve.

I am about to place an order from CCI. I'll add a few TPC's to do some experimenting with.

[ironchef97]

Originally Posted by cjottawa

Wow. Now I'm super curious about the valve bolt system in Gargoyle.
There has to be *something* in the gun that lets it release air more gently than other markers.

My Redux completely destroys Marblizer or X-Ball Gold/Hellfire, both brittle paint.

I'm starting to think this has less to do with the short barrel (more gas needed) and more to do with TPC/bolt/power-tube/valve.

Garg's internals are the EXACT same as a phantom, the only difference is that the valve has the diffuser...which means maybe less air is wasted due to hammer bounce, or liquid is being released through the powertube instead of air since there is so little space inside the valve? Also, the diffuser could mean that the gun "sips" air instead of gulping it...Everything else is the same, I have like 4 sets of phantom internals I switched around into my Garg.

Any chance that there is a "lip" on your redux barrel or freak insert?
What about taking all your redux internals and putting them in a phantom? Or at least change the TPC onto a phantom, isolate and see if that is the cause of your ball breaks?

[CJOttawa]

Originally Posted by ironchef97

Garg's internals are the EXACT same as a phantom, the only difference is that the valve has the diffuser...which means maybe less air is wasted due to hammer bounce, or liquid is being released through the powertube instead of air since there is so little space inside the valve? Also, the diffuser could mean that the gun "sips" air instead of gulping it...Everything else is the same, I have like 4 sets of phantom internals I switched around into my Garg.

Any chance that there is a "lip" on your redux barrel or freak insert?
What about taking all your redux internals and putting them in a phantom? Or at least change the TPC onto a phantom, isolate and see if that is the cause of your ball breaks?

I'm with you Ironchef.

I can tell you I've checked the Redux for barrel/breech flaws and can't find any.

I've also tried over-bored Freak inserts (think "0.684") with sub-0.680 Marblizer and had the Marbs explode in the barrel, leaving paint all over the TPC. (standard TPC, not drilled)

That says to me it's the blast at the TPC that's the problem.

I have NOT tried the BBA valve yet. Right now, the 12-gram dumps straight into the ports on the power-tube which may mean liquid is getting into the power-tube and at the paint.

[Gogged_Gurl]

Gargoyle has the same internals as a phantom!!! Same barrel too! what the heck is going on here...?
Maybe the SC feed screw on the phantom was too long...doing what I like to call "scratching my balls" when the gun is fired?

no ball scratching,smooth breach and bore. a former long time carter machine employee also said that the phantoms have allways been paint breakers.

Garg's internals are the EXACT same as a phantom, the only difference is that the valve has the diffuser...which means maybe less air is wasted due to hammer bounce, or liquid is being released through the powertube instead of air since there is so little space inside the valve? Also, the diffuser could mean that the gun "sips" air instead of gulping it...Everything else is the same, I have like 4 sets of phantom internals I switched around into my Garg.

the garg valve body is actually different than the phantom,its longer. the insert doesnt devolumize as much as it seems. what the insert does do is diffuse wich i imagine has alot to do with it being gentler on paint.

as you can see from splatts pix the bolt face on the lapco is much larger than the phantom and there is more room for the blast to expand. i have seen that referenced before with the line SI and rebline bore drop bolts claiming that because of the added it expansion room they are easy on paint.

so basically the phantom is giving a small direct shot of more liquid to a smaller surface area on the ball. sharper impact more potential for a break.

[splattttttt]

Originally Posted by Gogged_Gurl

perfect example of that splattt. i had both my garg and phantom at the SC game and the phantom was destroying ultra marbs. the gargoyle not one break with the same paint. how does that make any sense LOL

Glad you asked GG, the answer is simple.
The ball on the cocker threaded Nelson's is chambered in the barrel. On the Phantom's, the ball gets pushed further into the breech, but not in to the barrel.

Smaller ID barrels, such as inserts can sometimes end up having a tighter ID then the breech on some guns. Not all the times, but it could if you were using a .680 or smaller, and this mey be why Phantom's break more paint then the Garg.

[CJOttawa]

Originally Posted by splattttttt

Glad you asked GG, the answer is simple.
The ball on the cocker threaded Nelson's is chambered in the barrel. On the Phantom's, the ball gets pushed further into the breech, but not in to the barrel.

Smaller ID barrels, such as inserts can sometimes end up having a tighter ID then the breech on some guns. Not all the times, but it could if you were using a .680 or smaller, and this mey be why Phantom's break more paint then the Garg.

Hey Jack!

No matter how slowly and carefully I cock the Redux, it'll break brittle paint when fired, leading me to look at the way TPC/valve/power-tube delivers gas. (or liquid!)

With the Redux, the Freak insert butts up against a lip ahead of the breech.

When you cock the gun, the ball is pushed up a mild ramp (more mild a ramp than the Phantom - see this thread: Redux bolt & snub: milled bevel on bolt (Mongo? Help?)) from the breech into the Freak insert.

[splattttttt]

Originally Posted by cjottawa

Hey Jack!

No matter how slowly and carefully I cock the Redux, it'll break brittle paint, leading me to look at the TPC/valve/power-tube.My Nellie has a thicker snub that the Phantom's, and the next ball is usually half in the breech, but it never chops the ball. Instead, it get's pushed back up after the breech is closed.
The Lapco bolt allows the second ball to sink further into the breech, then the authentic Nelspot bolt, which is rather fat.

With the Redux, the Freak insert butts up against a lip ahead of the breech.
Yes, but when the ball is pushed into the breech, does the ball end up in the barrel? If yes... Then your breaks are not due to balls getting sliced by the lip on the barrel.

When you cock the gun, the ball is pushed up a mild ramp (more mild a ramp than the Phantom - see this thread: Redux bolt & snub: milled bevel on bolt (Mongo? Help?)) from the breech into the Freak insert.

Take the gun aprt, and with the barrel off, and see where the ball rests at before the trigger is pulled.