Paintball

[CJOttawa]

Originally Posted by DSA

Ok sorry for the poor quality but you have to understand I'm traveling lite, iPhone,iPad,MacBook, Army gear, poogie bait and redux. So here you go, I'm not going to say I haven't experienced the bindin on a few occasions because I have. I will say however it's not something people should get wrapped around the axels about. The design is what it is, an original copy of the DD68 with today's upgrades. It's going to happen but not mainly due to design bit rather paint.

YouTube - Redux Loading Technique



An oblong ball will cause it to happen as will the tiny little balls up north. My advice is simple use the Redux ball sizer, pick your paint as carefully as you pick your shots and just pump it normally at any rate you desire.

FYI, I tried the DSA technique using reballs.
I've tried it with large, medium and small inserts and without an insert.

No dice - pinchy pinchy.

I tend to pump completely the opposed way: tilted WAY BACK and slightly to the side. This keeps one ball on the feed block and the rest away from the block, in the feed tube.

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DSA: could you post some close-up photos of your snub, with the slide OFF, showing the feed port?

[ironchef97]

Originally Posted by cjottawa

FYI, I tried the DSA technique using reballs.
I've tried it with large, medium and small inserts and without an insert.

No dice - pinchy pinchy.

I tend to pump completely the opposed way: tilted WAY BACK and slightly to the side. This keeps one ball on the feed block and the rest away from the block, in the feed tube.

*** *** ***

DSA: could you post some close-up photos of your snub, with the slide OFF, showing the feed port?

Have you considered grinding the front 1/3 of the snub feed hole down into a wedge, kind of like so: "<" Right now I think its more of a rectangular shape correct? Of course such a modification is permanent...what about having an extra test snub made out of aluminum? All you need is an Al tube with the correct OD, a large enough ID (you're not firing balls out of this, just testing ball feeding). After you get it, just drill (or dremel) a feed hole in the correct location, and drill and tap for screws to mount the frame. What is the OD and ID of the snub again (where the bolt/hammer reside)?


Of course, make that area into a wedge may just slice balls instead of pinching them. hence the test snub.

[CJOttawa]

Originally Posted by ironchef97

CJ the pics you want are in DSA's review:
Redux Upgrade 1.1 Review

Got it. Thanks for that! It looks like there's little or no difference between my Redux and DSA's snubs or feed ports so it's not an issue of one being machined differently.

Originally Posted by ironchef97

Have you considered grinding the front 1/3 of the snub feed hole down into a wedge, kind of like so: "<" Right now I think its more of a rectangular shape correct? Of course such a modification is permanent...what about having an extra test snub made out of aluminum? All you need is an Al tube with the correct OD, a large enough ID (you're not firing balls out of this, just testing ball feeding). After you get it, just drill (or dremel) a feed hole in the correct location, and drill and tap for screws to mount the frame. What is the OD and ID of the snub again (where the bolt/hammer reside)?


Of course, make that area into a wedge may just slice balls instead of pinching them. hence the test snub.

You and I are on the same page.

I'll let you all in on something: I've asked Have Blue about the ASP Phantom "o-ring detent" mod.

Mongo *should* be sending him a spare Redux snub to test on.

I would absolutely love to get a spare snub to test design ideas on. Better yet: one with an interchangeable, bolt on feed port.

[CJOttawa]

Originally Posted by dm6rocker

Just a curious question, but how do you think the ASP detent mod would work to eliminate pinching? I think I have an idea of what you're onto, I just want to see if what I'm visualizing is correct.

Sort of like keeping the ball in the breach during the pump stroke to prevent the next ball in the stack from falling into that "sweetspot" and getting pinched?

I have the same issue using my Duck from time to time. It doesn't happen enough to be annoying, and it takes all of a second or two to clear the jam, but I'm still really learning how to use the thing properly and I assume that once the redux's are done, I may experience the same thing. I like the idea of the o-ring mod, I had a phantom with that at one point and it worked incredibly well.

You got it. The idea of the ASP detent is exactly as you describe - helping to "trap" the first ball, preventing it from moving enough to allow the second ball to creep into the breech.

As DSA alluded in his reply to my Redux review, a bore drop conversion would be the perfect solution as it would make the breech narrow enough to simply not allow the second ball to feed.

From the DD68 Redux [NO HOLDS BARRED] Review thread:

Originally Posted by skx762

We are talking the weight of a paintball; maybe the “drop conversion spacer” could be music wire like the AutoMag barrel ball detents? If the space isn’t too much of a distance, maybe a modified form of the ASP mod and a tiny o-ring, something the bolt can ride over the top of without a lot of internal modifications and chances of Murphy rearing his head.

DSA, I hope to put together a traveling gun system too. Something I could mail to myself if I had to. I could pack the swabs and stuff. I think I might repost an old packing list and some pictures I had and see if we can’t generate some interest in another thread. Do you fly or do you drive?

I have a milled bolt that's actually flat on the bottom and leaves a bit of space for a detent.

I heard rumours that back in the Nelspot days, people would make a sort of "leaf spring" detent - a flat piece of metal that curved upward in the breech and would act as a combination detent and bore drop conversion. As the bolt slid forward, it pressed the leaf spring down and out of the way.

I have no photos or corroboration on this other than reading about it quite some time ago in a source I've since forgotten.

There's a full discussion on that topic, here: http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/p...ml#post1425163

[CJOttawa]

Originally Posted by splattttttt

Noobish question incoming... Isn't the Redux cocker threaded?
My understanding with my latter comment is that the barrel bore usually acts as a detente all on its own, negating the need for the oring detente.
The ASP oring detente mod was useful on the Phantom threaded snubs, not on issue on the ASP roundhead snubs due to the fact they're cocker threaded.
I have both.

Not a noobish question at all! The Redux uses custom threading, 7/8"-18, knocked down for clearance. Details here, including confirmation by Mongo:
Redux barrel threads!

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Check the first post in this thread - major update to describe the nature of the problem and possible solutions.

The ASP detent would, hopefully, do something similar to typical electro or 'cocker detents: hold the first ball back in the breech to block a second one from double-feeding.

I'm thinking of an Angel detent installed under the snub might work.

[CJOttawa]

Originally Posted by splattttttt

So not all cocker threaded Nelson breech's are the same then? I'm confused now. I thought that all cocker threaded Nelsons allowed for the bolt to seal in the barrel

I believe the problem would still remain, regardless of barrel threading: the bolt is still breech drop so there's a huge cavity behind the barrel in which a second ball can double feed.

You could (theoretically) build an Autococker threaded LineSI Bushmaster body. Nothing would change - it would still be a BORE-drop Nelson gun - except there'd be threading instead of a slip-fit system.

Detent systems (the ones we're talking about) are for keeping the paint from rolling forward while the bolt is pulled back, to prevent a gap from opening where a second paintball could feed.

Originally Posted by DSA

Oh crapola I just had an a grand idea! How about incorporating the Icon Z-1 ball bearing detent style system into the lower portion of the snub. Not for detent purposes mind you but as a ball lifter. Sorry I am at work but I can post photos later tonight to give you guys an idea about what I am talking about.

This I gotta see!

[CJOttawa]

Alright folks, a photos worth a thousand words.

Here's a photo series of an ACTUAL PINCH AND CHOP IN PROGRESS on Redux s/n 043.

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/a...dux_snub-1-jpg

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/a...dux_snub-2-jpg

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/a...dux_snub-3-jpg

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/a...dux_snub-4-jpg

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/a...dux_snub-5-jpg

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/a...dux_snub-6-jpg

CHOP! If a second ball sits above the the breech, this is the place and time it's going to chop, just as this one is.

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/a...dux_snub-7-jpg

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/a...dux_snub-9-jpg

The EXACT spot that the second ball pinches is the sharp "point" at the top of the milled section of the snub.

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/a...inch_point-jpg

This is a second ball sitting comfortably OUTSIDE of the breech, resting on the snub. I had to manually "pull" this ball out for the photo.

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/a...dux_snub-8-jpg

The snub milling ahead of the feed port isn't aligned with the feed block on the slide.

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/a...ux_snub-10-jpg

A few points.

• The pinch doesn't happen because the first ball moves too far forward; it happens even with the first ball directly below the second.
• The ASP o-ring detent mod isn't going to work, not the way it would on the Phantom, because the problem isn't with the ball rolling forward, it's with the slide feedblock smashing the second ball into the snub.
• The last two photos above show a bolt I had milled. This leaves room at the bottom of the breech to install some kind of detent that would push the ball UP - quasi bore drop if you will

[ironchef97]

Why not just have the snub milled so that pointy part is flat?


Maybe DSA can post photos of his Redux without the feedtube, so we can see the location of his milled slot relative to the feedblock hole. If DSA's milled slot is aligned with the hole, that might be the reason why he is able to load his so fast without pinching.

[CJOttawa]

Originally Posted by ironchef97

Why not just have the snub milled so that pointy part is flat?


Maybe ask DSA to post photos of his Redux without the feedtube, and look at the location of his milled slot relative to the open hole. If DSA's milled slot is aligned with the hole, that might give you a reason why he is able to load his so fast without pinching.

Yup. I was thinking EXACTLY what you were about DSA's marker. The photos in his review seem to suggest his is configured the same as mine though: Redux Upgrade 1.1 Review

Perhaps he's just been fortunate to have large Texan balls. Paintballs.

I expect I'm going to have to have metal welded back on before grinding things down; the "point" can't really be milled off because the material below it on the port is already very thin.

[ironchef97]

Originally Posted by cjottawa

Yup. I was thinking EXACTLY what you were about DSA's marker. The photos in his review seem to suggest his is configured the same as mine though: Redux Upgrade 1.1 Review

Perhaps he's just been fortunate to have large Texan balls. Paintballs.

I expect I'm going to have to have metal welded back on before grinding things down; the "point" can't really be milled off because the material below it on the port is already very thin.

Hm, well if you have any paintball machinists local to you, I'm sure they could mill it without cutting too close *coughDukiecough*.

I think using a hand file will take a long time, and a grinder is hard to control since you have to maneuver the snub relative to the grinder (especially with the snub being stainless steel). Also that snub will become hot as **** while you're grinding the spot down, and do you have a variable speed grinder? I've been learning how to work with stainless steel the last 2 months, and it is a bitch to cut, I think the fastest, cleanest and most precise method to achieve your goal is a mill, preferably done by a machinist who does paintball work.