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Old 01-08-2013, 09:56 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbinger[TG] View Post
And what do you think cases actually cost? Not to mention, some of the biggest scenario/big games in the country have far higher prices. (over 90/case)

These are scenario games, not walk on affairs. Production costs, field costs, refs, and things cost money. And if you want quality, that costs money too.
You probably understand that I don't have access to OXCC's actual wholesale prices. That being said, I understand that MAP is usually between 28-43% above wholesale (depending on manufacturer). For sake of argument let's assume Redemption is smack in the middle with a MAP 35.5% above wholesale, and they're using that price for the folks who buy on game day (assuming they are encouraging folks to register early and taking a cut in the profits) that works out to $38.70 +35.5% = $60. That being said, either way you look at it, that's a good price given that the profit must be divided between the field and event promoters (if they're even working for money).

I don't have access to wholesale prices for FS rounds but, let's assume it's way less profitable than Redemption. If the MAP ($39.99) is only 10% above wholesale, that would work out to FS rounds costing $36 wholesale. This would mean that OXCC is marking up FS rounds by 66% Even if MAP was only 5% over wholesale, that'd still work out to a 57% markup.

Further, I've received word that OXCC is using the FPO blue fill (Tiberius' default FPO color) and, this paint is sold at the same prices as the white fill so, no claims of special run costs would apply there.

In regards to event pricing, Redemption is listed as Valken's 'top of the line paint from Valken' and OXCC charges $60 for their top of the line paint. So, there appears to be no difference between event paint and walk-on paint other than for the event, you must by the premium. I've got no problem there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbinger[TG] View Post
... Places need to make money, there are costs to run a business. When you sell 1000 cases of regular paint, you only make X per case. But then you only sell 100 cases of FS paint. And your stating your market price, not the market price. The equilibrium price is what the market will bear, not what you want it to bear.
I totally get the need to make money, for example, I had no problem helping Warplay Paintball by paying a $15 FPO fee (for me to use FS rounds) each day I played there last year.

If we're going to consider volume of sale for FS vs PBs I think it's worth noting the following:
For every case of regular paint, you can shelve at least five 100rd boxes of FS.
Shelf life of regular paint sucks, FS rounds will last well over a year, therefore, they can be pre-ordered for anticipated surges at less risk.
Also, Paint in general, tends to go above MAP for the convenience of getting it at the field versus a store or elsewhere but, this typically doesn't apply to FPO as you can see with OXCC's regular prices and many other places that sell FPO. It also tends to rise in relation to special events to help pay for the cost of the event. Sometimes prices rise above MAP due to demand vs supply. I fully accept these situations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by delta paintball View Post
Did I miss the part where people are forced by gun point to purchase them?
The short answer, no. Just like nobody is forcing me to play at OXCC at all, especially since it's over two hours away (assuming zero traffic).

The last time I shot regular paint was at OA Rosedale for their pump scenario. If you don't know this already, if you're shooting nothing but FS rounds, you need to play differently than the typical paintballer. It took me a fair amount of time to adjust my tactical thinking and I don't plan to go back to regular paintballs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The $aint View Post
Oh wait someone must have got a "full auto first strike platform marker"
Some how I remember the age old debate of "its the player not the marker"
Nope, definitely no Full auto marker for me but, you're right, it is the player not the marker. FS rounds don't work miracles on their own. To use them, and only them with a mag-fed marker, you need to realize that you must play differently- for example, using my Tiberius 9.1, and eight mags (64rds), the average player with one 160rd hopper, and four 140rd tubes can fire, 11 rounds for every one of mine. So, I have to take advantage of their range and accuracy. I suspect, based on my own experiences, that a lot of folks can't or don't want to adapt the change of tactics and mindset required and this is why so many FS-capable markers end up on the used market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadawg View Post
Pricing for First strikes are:
$30 for a 40 round box.
$60 for a 100 round box
$80 for a 100 round box and a bag of Valken Redemption.

The First Strikes are there and the cost to shoot them is relative to the cost to provide them. As with any business all sales contribute to overhead remediation. The fact of the matter is that OXCC is a growing operation and the money made goes directly back into the field. If you come to the field game in and game out you will see the work being done as the field gets bigger and better. First Strikes are an option and careful consideration was put into pricing them in a manner where we could afford provide them to players.
I don't mean for this to sound like an attack on OXCC. I'd have the same issue with any other FPO field that carried FS rounds for the same price given all of the information I presented above. If there's something I didn't consider I'm certainly interested.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:22 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I could make the same arguement about the quality of players.
Cheap players are just that cheap and don't tend to support fields like they should.
Those same players complain about every little thing and do t take in to account for what the fields do for them.
You get what you pay for.
Am I right?
Being a looooooonnnnggg time supporter of paintball, store owner, inventor. Ill never bitch about prices when playing a big game. It's these places that make it possible to enjoy what we do. And it's our duty to help them reach the goals they have set.
I've seen way too many good places fold by cutting throats to make people happy. And for what? These same people never step foot on that field again.
I personally enjoy many of the tri state fields. Many want to comp me on walk on days and I refuse the offer. Many are friends and I feel that I am NOT special. And pay full price.
Maybe it's the way I was raised? I my self tend to sell my self short on custom builds. In hopes that it pays back. But bottom line is it doesn't not in paintball. So try to over look the dollar amount of things and look more to quality of the product or production and remember those extra refs that you maybe wishing had been available are not so you could save $10.
So far OXCC has out done what any other field that holds large games have done. They run smooth. Problems are taken care of swiftly, and players have more Honor in the long run.
When everyone enjoys the end product.
I my self shoot two boxes of FS and a case of balls. If I don't use it all its always good for the next game.
Lets play some ball!
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:32 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Let me be clear, I support scenarios.

I came out, and played at Rosedale for their pump scenario (pump it up), the last pump scenario I've heard of even though I hardly ever play with my pump any more.

I played at Battle of the Bulge, 4 and 6, Operation Skidmark, Operation: Hastings. Hogback Paintball's Diem Ben Phu, and Battle Magic, CPX Sports' Living Legends 3, 4, 5, and I'm planning on attending their sixth.

I'm not complaining about scenario / big game prices, or fees.

I'm not complaining about the prices on an FPO field.

I'm trying to understand why FS rounds are being marked up at a much higher than regular paint for their walk on days and, scenarios.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:48 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Then talk to the mfg of first strikes and ask them
hey,bring down the dealer price per box. Lets be realistic when you buy paintballs it's by the skid. 97 case to a skid. How,many boxes of FS rounds fill a skid? Cause your priceing is by the pallet.
If you can convince them
Then I'm sure everyone would buy and shoot them all day long.
It's cost of production of that your buying a high end paintball less waste better game for you and the wow factor. I'm willing to pay for that
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:53 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The $aint View Post
Then talk to the mfg of first strikes and ask them
hey,bring down the dealer price per box. Lets be realistic when you buy paintballs it's by the skid. 97 case to a skid. How,many boxes of FS rounds fill a skid? Cause your priceing is by the pallet.
If you can convince them
Then I'm sure everyone would buy and shoot them all day long.
It's cost of production of that your buying a high end paintball less waste better game for you and the wow factor. I'm willing to pay for that
I understand that regular paint is bought by the Skid.
I understand that FS rounds are not bought by the skid (except maybe for those fields that get a semi-custom color and share the batch with a non-competing field).

I also understand that paint grenades are not bought by the skid either.
So, maybe it'd be better to compare them to grenades?

I can't see OXCC's grenade prices (for events or walk-on days) but, I can look at another field.

CPX Sports (on walk-on days) sells BT M8 grenades for $6/grenade of $30 for six. I know they are FPO and I suspect they are Field grenade only (due to their white paint preferences) but, I cannot confirm.
Hustle Paintball sells BT M8 grenades for $4.95
For LLV, CPX sold grenades by the six pack for $30 for pre-regs, and $35 on game day.

This has me curious as to how OXCC charges for grenades and, whether or not they are field grenade only.

It's apparent that CPX only applies a markup of 21% (over MAP) on walk-on days with no discount for volume. For LLV, they charged only 1% over MAP if you purchased during pre-reg, and 18% over if you bought them during the event.

The rounds are better performing in the sense of range and accuracy. But, in terms of capacity (on gun or in loaders), they simply cannot compete. These factors, the manufacturing cost, and some level of dealer profit are already represented in the $.40/shot cost. The earlier, initial cost of $.75/shot was based on them being pre-loaded into 8rd tubes.

I will add that I've been in phone tag with OXCC. I will do my part and see if their management has anything to add to the discussion.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:11 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Honestly uv the prices are what they are. They are priced on a by the case cost and marked up as such. As with anything if you find value in it buy it, if not keep on trucking. At this point we are in to a two page derail of a game thread. I would be more than happy to provide the field phone number and you can question them ad nauseum about their pricing philosophy and I am sure OXCC would be more than happy to explain to you the factors that go into figuring overheads and then assigning values to products to cover them.

Speaking from personal experience, if first strikes were $1.00 per shot and it cost me $100 to shoot them per case, I would, simply because the kill to cost ratio is better than paint could ever be, and I shoot em' one at a time from a bolt action CCM. For those who shoot FS on a regular basis, we are playing a whole other game besides paintball. I think some incredibly generous field owners have made it possible for players to experience FS by bringing them to events, and now because of that generosity other field owners are paying the price to be in business with posts and carrying on like what we see above. It is because they are becoming more widely accepted that you are seeing them at events and manufacturers are making guns and as cost come down from the rising tide floating more boats you will see as was the case with paint prices years ago the cost per case lower.
For arguments sake though I will point out that Skirmish charged well over $100 a case for paint they payed $.01 a ball for and did quite well and continue to do so. In America the businessman is permitted to charge what ever he wishes and if his paying customers pays, well then the price plays. I don't know about you dude, but I'm not shooting paint on any regular basis any time soon.
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Last edited by shadawg; 01-10-2013 at 07:19 AM.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:10 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I genuinely apologize for derailing the announcement!!

If any of the folks who worked or helped out with scenarios at OA Bowie, or Rosedale are assisting here, I know this will be a good scenario.

Good hunting to all who attend.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 01-11-2013, 06:41 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Old 01-15-2013, 11:09 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Back to Topic! Those coming are invited to join me in playing for the Government forces. Come out have a great time at a great field, and bring your A game. Anyone interested in playing the Government side should shoot me a message! Dont forget to get in on the Early Registration bonuses!
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Old 02-01-2013, 04:35 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Here's the event map!

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