Paintball

[DeTrevni]

Okay, I know the title may seem rather preposterous, but hear me out. I've got some legitimate concerns. AgentSmith has practically sold me on the Miltec, but I must admit, I'm in love with the Tiberius. I'd like to post the advantages and disadvantages I feel in each setup, and I'd like you guy's thoughts on the subject.

Firstly, the Miltec.

Advantages:
- $99 with a free holster
- 10 rd. magazine
- Simple to do Smith mods (front loading magazine, side ejecting CO2, CCI pierce pin) solve many of the shortcomings of the Miltec.
- Good "throw away" pistol to test pistoleer waters.

Disadvantages:
- Quality of the marker
- Reload time (fast, but still slower than popping in a new mag)
- "Agg" factor (let's face it, the Tib looks WAY cooler than the brick of a Miltec )

And now my thoughts on the Tib-8.

Advantages:
- Excellent quality
- Internal regulator
- Quick reloading (of the marker, not the mags)
- 3 mag reloads with 12g of CO2
- Looks good

Disadvantages
- High cost
- Pain in the butt to disassemble
- 8 shots per mag
- Disassembly req'd when a ball chops
- Pain in the butt to recharge mags with CO2
- Mags are heavier than the Miltec's needed 10 rd. tubes

Final thoughts:

Obviously, the Tib has more disadvantages than the Miltec, but the advantages of the Tib carry more weight than with the Miltec. One of my major concerns with the Tib is a barrel break, and HAVING to take the entire thing apart to clean it up. It's a pain in the bahookie to tear apart, it looks like. How often would one expect a break? Was chopping really that much of a problem with these things?

Thanks for any insight, as usual.

[foughtwolf]

Originally Posted by DeTrevni

Okay, I know the title may seem rather preposterous, but hear me out. I've got some legitimate concerns. AgentSmith has practically sold me on the Miltec, but I must admit, I'm in love with the Tiberius. I'd like to post the advantages and disadvantages I feel in each setup, and I'd like you guy's thoughts on the subject.

Firstly, the Miltec.

Advantages:
- $99 with a free holster
- 10 rd. magazine
- Simple to do Smith mods (front loading magazine, side ejecting CO2, CCI pierce pin) solve many of the shortcomings of the Miltec.
- Good "throw away" pistol to test pistoleer waters.

Disadvantages:
- Quality of the marker
- Reload time (fast, but still slower than popping in a new mag)
- "Agg" factor (let's face it, the Tib looks WAY cooler than the brick of a Miltec )

And now my thoughts on the Tib-8.

Advantages:
- Excellent quality
- Internal regulator
- Quick reloading (of the marker, not the mags)
- 3 mag reloads with 12g of CO2
- Looks good

Disadvantages
- High cost
- Pain in the butt to disassemble
- 8 shots per mag
- Disassembly req'd when a ball chops
- Pain in the butt to recharge mags with CO2
- Mags are heavier than the Miltec's needed 10 rd. tubes

Final thoughts:

Obviously, the Tib has more disadvantages than the Miltec, but the advantages of the Tib carry more weight than with the Miltec. One of my major concerns with the Tib is a barrel break, and HAVING to take the entire thing apart to clean it up. It's a pain in the bahookie to tear apart, it looks like. How often would one expect a break? Was chopping really that much of a problem with these things?

Thanks for any insight, as usual.

My Pro shop owner ordered two first run Tib-8's. They didnt chop as much as the extremely small barrel bore squished the paint. I think that has been fixed by now.

[DeTrevni]

Thanks for the reply. I didn't know if there was a chop problem with the Tib stripping a ball from the mag or what.

Another thing I should point out. I'm 6'3", so I actually find the huge mongo grip of the Tib quite comfy, so I didn't include size as a factor here.

[Tohri]

I'm going to come out in favor of the TAG here, simply because it's really the better marker.
More expensive, yes, but I feel that is compensated for.

Of course, if you wanted a Really fun pistol, Mod an F-1/2 illustrator for a Zeus clip, and put a 12 gram changer on the backbottle ASA. Long, but light and Super efficient.

[Walking_Target]

I'll weigh in.

I've used G2s and the PT series pistols. I've sold all those.

yes, CO2 changes are easier with those pistols and reloading paint in the long term is faster....

that being said, i have a Tib 8 and it's made my 'keepers' list (i have 3 lists, "never sell' "keeper" and 'whatever')

In the entire time i've owned mine (almsot 6 months) i've put about 40 CO2 cartridges through it, and about 30 cartridges worth of paint (1 cartridge gets me about ~24-32 shots, depending on the outside temperature)

so for the sake of argument, let's say that i've shot half a case through that sucker. Not one chop.

Chops most often occur with those pistols when a newbie looses count of their remaining shots and pops the mag to check, then tries to re-insert it. Usually, there will be a ball hanging just below the chamber and trying to jam the mag back in will make it go pop.
That problem is easily avoided by simply keeping mental count of your shots and resisting the temptation to pop the mag out to check.

The other big factors...

It's an Automag. no really, it's an automag type valve. The difference is that it's a 'recoil operated' mag, with the travel of the bolt operating the on/off rather than the sear directly doing so. when you pull the trigger, the sear releases the bolt, which in turn releases pressure on the on/off and closes it, when the chamber dumps the bolt is forced back which forces the on/off open. ingenious system.

The downside of this is that if you don't keep track of how many times you've used a mag, you can suddenly run out of co2. this is an advantage and a disadvantage. There's no *brrrrrat* of it rapidly cycling to alert people that you've run out, but nor is there any real warning either, one shot it's a bit slow, the next you get nothing. Then you have to release the mag, give the marker a couple quick back and forth shakes to clear any balls in the chamber and pop an new one in. The mags *do* come with a handy little reload counter, make sure to use it.

brings me to point 3. Mags are kinda pricey. first priority should be to paint a 2" band near the top in a bright, reflective color. This way when you pop one out in the middle of a firefight, you can actually find it.


now, the advantage. Regulated CO2 is really, really handy in the accuracy department. my Tib 8 is the most accurate pistol i've ever shot and is pretty darn close to my mags in overall accuracy.

of course, a fun pistol in my opinion would be an automag with a backbottle 7 oz and a 10-15 round springfeed

[flyingpootang]

To field strip the Tac8 is real simple 3 screws, a trigger pin, and slightly tipping it to the left can be done under 1 minute with only 1 allen key. I have no idea why there are rumors it's such a pain? Check out t80g.com and look around. There are some cool vids and mods. I own quite a few pistols such as AGD sydarms, pgp, mag pistols, G3, and a duck slide. The T8 is so far my favorite. ...Oh I forgot T8 FTW
Here's my T8 with a high viz front sight, under mount picatinny rail, light/laser combo, & polished internals. I did all the work my self which was very simple....

[DeTrevni]

Thanks for the input guys! I'm really starting to lean towards the Tac-8 at this point. Would I be able to re-anodize the "slide," do you think? I've got some ideas...

[agentSmith]

Yep, Dirtnap won a gold anodized version at the CPPC and I've seen an olive one that looked awesome, they take anno.

I want to add something to my wellknown position based on talk I had with folks at the Global Conquest big game last weekend.
I was informed that I underestimate, understate and generally confuse people with my obfuscationary circumlocution.
So let me be clear. For teams of twenty recballers on a side, with maybe %50-70 experienced players and maybe even a few pro level players, the TAG8 is PLENTY gun. I used mine at HS 2 weekends ago and held my own well using 2 quickchange mags and the flip and load technique I've mentioned before.

I am a pistol player. I only play pistol, 100% of the time. Whether it's the SPPL finals or last weekend's big game and I average over 30 days of play a year.

If you want to play against these guys:
Hell Survivors Mercenaries in the Meat Grinder
with a pistol... Then you have to take it all a bit more seriously.

I don't care that the Miltec is large, doesn't resemble any real gun and requires a full time airsmith. I am that airsmith and FOR ME the effort is worth it. But I certainly wouldn't say it's the only gun that will work. Dirtnap is an example of what damage can be done with a pair of TAGs.

I was forced to admit last weekend that when I play with 2 pistols against any mode, any ROF, I consider it even in most situations. There are a few situations where I'm handicapped and a few where I have an advantage but in most cases I can do what a person with a regular marker would do.
In one of the village games I youtubed you can see a Mercenary, Big Mike, look back at me, say "Supress that guy in the tower" and take off out into the open. I fired 8 shots, all of which entered the window and Big Mike made the building.
He didn't care that I had a pistol, he didn't care that I use 12ies and 10rd tubes, I was just a paintballer who could pull his weight. That's how I like it and that's how I intend to keep it as long as I am physically able.

My knock on the TAG8 is shootdown. Mags do this with co2 and so do TAGs, under rapid fire the velocity drops dramatically and sometimes randomly shot to shot, this accounts for alot of chopping with this gun, when if you fire it slow the velocity is more consistent.
This is unacceptable to me in a primary. If there's three guys or less in a bunker, I'm going in and my gun better be able to keep up. The simple spyder based Miltec will keep pumping out paint long after ice has formed on the outside.

I feel no loyalty for Miltec, it's hard to when they don't have an ADDRESS much less a website, that's why I have such hope for the new Tippmann Pistol.

For right now, it's the best gun for me. epecially when the price is right.
The front load mag is underestimated by most, but in a bunker, it's a quantum leap.

In the last 10 years or so only one player has really studied in person how I actually play. Bill, who was the head ref and field manager at Hell Survivors before Shaun took over last year. His MCB handle is Magnumhan. When he left Michigan for Tennesee he took a modified Warsensor G2+ and when he started the day last weekend at GC08, he was wearing it again.
Deacon, the captain of Delta Ops has a G2+ on my bench right now back from anno and ready for some attention. Kenzo, a friend from the Mercs just got his Delta I finished for him and Walt another Merc often runs with his TAG in smaller team open play. They see that a big old guy like me can hold his own when the pistol will do it's part.
So the question is "How pistol do you want to play?"

All that being said, it's also true that the harness and holsters are as important as what gun you choose.

Rob

[DeTrevni]

Thanks for the insight, agentSmith! Every time I read your posts, I always feel somehow inspired. I've read quite a few of them, and to be honest, you're the only real reason I'm even considering a G2 over a Tac. When I pursue something, I pursue it to its fullest. I don't want a "sidearm." With pods, a sidearm is just downright extra weight. When I want to play pistol, I mean pistol, and it's from your own experiences that lead me to try it!

However, shootdown is a huge strike against the Tac-8...

Besides, as a Spyder fan, I know a Spyder based platform inside and out. Don't know a dern thing about the 'mag platform though. That could be an advantage for the G1 over the Tac.

Another question: How well does the G1 take ano? Same with the Tac, I've got some "ideas."

Edit: Another point I'd like to address. When I listed "looks" as an advantage and disadvantage, I would like to emphasize that I really don't care so much. It's not that I don't like the looks of the G1, it's just that I think the Tac looks a little better, so I figured I'd list it. Looks really don't mean all that much to me. I shoot a Rainmaker.

[Walking_Target]

shootdown all depends on the temperature you use it in and mag cycling.

I won't re-use a freshly ejected clip when i can help it, i try to keep it in a constant rotation, first one fired is the last one to be re-used. A fresh, warm mag won't experience ANY shootdown in my experience, but if you are pounding out the paint like a bad hollywood action hero, you will start seeing some significant shootdown as the whole system starts to chill down (the big problem here is having the valve assembly chill, not just the cartridges)

a big factor though, is outside temperature. hot, summer day? You'd have to be pounding it out like a Matrix extra to get shootdown. brisk spring day..or winter... yes i played with a tib 8 in -1*C weather (just below freezing for you non metric folks) yes, i did manage to get shootdown when playing in below freezing weather. It's the first time i didn't have to work at it to get shootdown.

then again, style of play comes into the limelight here. I play the sneakiest game i can get away with. Nothing like tagging somebody who doesn't even hear the shot that gets them. that means i usually have very low rates of fire punctuated by those 'Oh sh*t!' rapid fire moments when somebody catches you.

I'm not dissing on AgentSmith here, he's the resident expert, but i've yet to be in a situation where i've had shootdown become a serious issue. again though, that's just me.

I do have this to say for the Tib 8 though. When you practice and have a decent mag-holding rig, you can literally eject the mag on the last shot of your clip, one handed (curling the finger around on the last shot to depress the mag release, if right handed) and have a new mag seated and ready to shoot without ever taking your marker off target.

I've got it down to the point where i can shoot one mag, rapid fire and only have about a second's pause between the last shot of the old mag and the first shot of the new mag.