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Old 03-20-2008, 08:30 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Question Trying to duplicate the vm-68 double trouble reative trigger

hi,
I was talking to one of the vm hoarders who has a double trouble. He was very nice to send me pictures of the double trouble and it's break down. The best part is, it's identical to the stock vm trigger ***'y except for the trigger, one other part (i believe) and the modified primary sear. It uses the same springs. The double trouble can be duplicated with the help of a machinist and I know 5 of them. I just need to get my hands on one of the vm-68 double troubles. The goal is to have "drop in" parts made for a stock trigger ***'y so anyone can upgrade their vm trigger ***'y. Would any one want to sell their double trouble? I need one to tear apart and have the parts sent to a machinist.

Smiley
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Old 03-20-2008, 11:33 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Though I do not have a solution to your request. I'd like to note I'd buy a set once you have a machnist make the parts.

I know Chris Mader has a double trouble and maybe he would be interested in sending the parts to his perfered machinist to be fabricated and sell through his Mass Extinction Paintball shop. See if you can get ahold of him and run the idea past him.

I'm 98% sure I'd buy a kit even if it was in complete parts and I'd need to assemble it by hand.
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Old 03-21-2008, 10:29 AM   #3 (permalink)
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The basic addition is a 3rd sear. It connects to the primary, just like the 2nd, except the articulation is different in that it pulls during the release.

Like you said, everything is pretty much the same, though with the Double-Trouble, they also made the trigger pull itself much longer. The reason was the return spring was made EXTREMELY heavy. Basically, heavy enough to release the primary sear on spring-power alone.

That means when you pull the trigger, you have to push against that sear, doubling the force required to pull the trigger. To minimize that, they increase the trigger pull, increasing leverage, and decreasing the effort required.

The obvious question is, if you are going to modify the stock trigger, is there room in there to add a 3rd sear, plus linkage, and a much beefier return spring?

Looking at the stock trigger, there seems to definetly be room, if you trim the primary sear a bit to make room for the 3rd sear. Perhaps right next to the 2nd sear. There is already a notch. You could just enlarge it enough to hold the 3rd sear. Connect the 3rd sear to the opposite pivot point so that it goes up, while the 2nd is going down, etc.

nick
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Old 03-21-2008, 12:42 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Listessa has one of these Double Trouble triggers last I heard (Bought from Chris Mader IIRC),she might be able to help
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Old 03-21-2008, 01:07 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I do have one, but I don't know when it will turn up. It's in the very messy pit of the paintball room that I'm trying to clean up. Thus I offer no guarintees on speed of finding. Seriously. I've been right out straight with a bunch of stuff, so most of the pieces and parts are encapsulated in bins since I moved. I don't want to go too orginizationally nuts since we're trying to get a house this summer and I'd just have to move everything again. I swear I am not just blowing you all off - I spend a lot of time with the future family, so I usually have minimal time at home. I do admit I get lazy and tend to use it to sleep or do general apartment upkeep type cleaning rather than biting the bullet (or paintball in this case) and entirely reorganizing the paintball room.

I'd be glad to send tracings, and/or mesurements or something, (I have access to calipers and all that good stuff) but I'd rather not part with it unless I was getting it back.

From what I noticed about the wear patterns on it, you do need a rather strong bit of steel, as the one I have is starting to get warn from use. I just hadn't been super motovated lately to go talk to the CNC guys in Duckering building to see if they want to dupe up paintball parts.

So basically, after I get a house sometime this summer/fall is a safer bet. Moose season is Sept, and I'm getting married in December, but I should have a calm period right before all that.
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Old 03-29-2008, 09:07 PM   #6 (permalink)
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ya, that's about right

HP Lovecraft,

That about sums it up with what needs to be done. I saw a double trouble once 12 years ago when I was a an airsmith at a field and I have a good memory, plus I did a 10 page detailed sketch (minus accurate measurements) of how it works, the parts, and how to assemble one in one of my airsmith notebooks. My hypothesis that one of the double troubles can be duplicated is from these sketches. I would need a double trouble in my hands to be sure and get duplicates made.

I did talk to Chris, and I understand how a double trouble modification is not that great, but I would like a chance to try and improve the trigger pull if possible.

Moreover, if a double trouble is not ideal, I am playing around with a better idea of a pneumatic reactive trigger system for a VM-68, but for it to work really well, the setup would need a tippmann cyclone feed system. I know, I know! I need to finish the dissertation instead of thinking about this stuff. ...But I know this would work!


Litessa,
You're getting married? My heart is broken. The only decent lady (who happens to be the only female on the planet who loves the vm-68) is not taken. My soulmate is gone.

But alas, Congrats on getting married.

As for the double trouble, I understand your concern about losing the double trouble. Would it be easier if you could get some test duplicates made on your end? I'm willing to help with the $ costs.

Smiley






Quote:
Originally Posted by HP_Lovecraft View Post
The basic addition is a 3rd sear. It connects to the primary, just like the 2nd, except the articulation is different in that it pulls during the release.

Like you said, everything is pretty much the same, though with the Double-Trouble, they also made the trigger pull itself much longer. The reason was the return spring was made EXTREMELY heavy. Basically, heavy enough to release the primary sear on spring-power alone.

That means when you pull the trigger, you have to push against that sear, doubling the force required to pull the trigger. To minimize that, they increase the trigger pull, increasing leverage, and decreasing the effort required.

The obvious question is, if you are going to modify the stock trigger, is there room in there to add a 3rd sear, plus linkage, and a much beefier return spring?

Looking at the stock trigger, there seems to definetly be room, if you trim the primary sear a bit to make room for the 3rd sear. Perhaps right next to the 2nd sear. There is already a notch. You could just enlarge it enough to hold the 3rd sear. Connect the 3rd sear to the opposite pivot point so that it goes up, while the 2nd is going down, etc.

nick

Last edited by infamoussmiley; 03-29-2008 at 09:10 PM. Reason: oops, forgot something
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Old 03-31-2008, 02:50 PM   #7 (permalink)
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You are such a flatterer Smiley!
I do thank you very much for such complaments tho.

Truth be told I'm starting the digging right now through the clusterf--er I mean paintball room. I picked up some orgizational stuff, so I should unearth things this week. Not sure about when I'd get dupes made with schedules/when I'd be able to run up to the machine shop and stuff. I'll work things out- I'm sure we can get some good stuff figured out at any rate. I do think it would be a kickass project, and nothing is wrong with bringing a DT trigger out for more to use.
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Old 03-31-2008, 05:45 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Talking



Please keep me posted - doc55smiley@gmail.com

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Old 03-31-2008, 09:37 PM   #9 (permalink)
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And if it's easier to make multiples.... and some extra mulla... keep us all posted.
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Old 04-01-2008, 12:39 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Another option, if they still make it, is the "Tri-Burst".
When the double-trouble came out, I wanted it.... but didn't want to pay that much.

By chance, I happen to see an advertisement in a shooting magazine for something called a "Tri-Burst". It attached to your trigger guard, to make a firearm shoot a 3-shot burst, and still be legal. It was only $20, so I bought it.

When it arrived, I was a little disappointed. It consisted of a LONG trigger, connected to a cam with 3 "pegs" on it. When you pull the trigger, the pegs would activate a linkage, which would push the real trigger.... 3 times.

It sorta worked when you pulled slow, but didn't seem to work at all when you pulled fast. So, not very usefull, but it might offer an alternative approach for an external mechanicam using a cam-shaft, with 2 or 3 sprockets.

nick
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