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Old 09-08-2010, 08:11 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by barweezy View Post
Ok, I think what 99% of people are failing to realize, is that with a threaded rod you can only make 2 types of adjustments. Shorten, and extend.
You can't extend it so the back block has a sliver between itself and the body, AND shorten it to limit bolt travel past the breech, both at the same time. It's physically impossible.
All my Cockers were set up that way - it's not impossible, it's just time consuming, one reason I stopped messing with them and just went to a regular blowback. I got sick of tinkering.

There are two possible areas of adjustment - at the ram, and at the backblock.

As far as rams go - they're all a 1" stroke, the difference in body length is achieved by deletion of bumpers inside the ram. You're seeing a difference in physical length of the threaded portion of the ram, not the actual throw.

In short, to answer the OP's question - I prefer a STO 3-way (nickel plated brass), an ANS Mini-ram (mostly for cosmetics, but partially for speed) and a Shocktech FGP LPR, simply because I don't have much use for PPS stuff (overpriced and overhyped).
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And God turned to Gabriel and said: “I shall create a land called Canada of outstanding natural beauty, with majestic mountains soaring with eagles, sparkling lakes abundant with bass and trout, forests full of elk and moose, and rivers stocked with salmon. I shall make the land rich in oil so the inhabitants prosper and call them Canadians, and they shall be praised as the friendliest of all people.”

“But Lord,” asked Gabriel, “Is this not too generous to these Canadians?”

And God replied, “Just wait and see the neighbors I shall inflict upon them.”
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Old 09-08-2010, 09:22 PM   #22 (permalink)
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It is impossible to simultaneously extend and retract any single fathomable object, regardless of what it is. Yes, there are in fact two areas you can adjust, but regardless, the distance from the piston in your ram to your back block cannot be longer and shorter at the same time. It's either one OR the other.
Furthermore, the throw of all rams is NOT equal. I tested it, it is FACT. While you are correct in stating that the appearance of a ram does not necessarily relate to its throw, you are incorrect in stating that I determined what I know to be fact by visual observation alone.
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Old 09-09-2010, 06:37 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by barweezy View Post
It is impossible to simultaneously extend and retract any single fathomable object, regardless of what it is. Yes, there are in fact two areas you can adjust, but regardless, the distance from the piston in your ram to your back block cannot be longer and shorter at the same time. It's either one OR the other.
Furthermore, the throw of all rams is NOT equal. I tested it, it is FACT. While you are correct in stating that the appearance of a ram does not necessarily relate to its throw, you are incorrect in stating that I determined what I know to be fact by visual observation alone.
How did you measure them? They're all 1" stroke - it's the design spec.

I'm not sure what you're getting upset about - it is possible to have the ram extend to it's limit and NOT extend the bolt past the back of the feedneck. Send me your Cocker and I'll set it up that way.

Like I said in a previous post - better to do it that way than to let the hammer lug stop the backblock assembly. You'll end up breaking the lug or mushrooming the slot in the lower tube.

I've used and tinkered with Cockers for over 10 years - I'm always open to new opinions and ideas, but I do know what I'm talking about, although I don't always express my ideas clearly.
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And God turned to Gabriel and said: “I shall create a land called Canada of outstanding natural beauty, with majestic mountains soaring with eagles, sparkling lakes abundant with bass and trout, forests full of elk and moose, and rivers stocked with salmon. I shall make the land rich in oil so the inhabitants prosper and call them Canadians, and they shall be praised as the friendliest of all people.”

“But Lord,” asked Gabriel, “Is this not too generous to these Canadians?”

And God replied, “Just wait and see the neighbors I shall inflict upon them.”
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Old 09-09-2010, 01:04 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jordan View Post
How did you measure them? They're all 1" stroke - it's the design spec.

I'm not sure what you're getting upset about - it is possible to have the ram extend to it's limit and NOT extend the bolt past the back of the feedneck. Send me your Cocker and I'll set it up that way.

Like I said in a previous post - better to do it that way than to let the hammer lug stop the backblock assembly. You'll end up breaking the lug or mushrooming the slot in the lower tube.

I've used and tinkered with Cockers for over 10 years - I'm always open to new opinions and ideas, but I do know what I'm talking about, although I don't always express my ideas clearly.
I put them side by side, with the pistons both forward, and the rod ends lined up with eachother. Then, holding the rams in place to ensure they don't move, I pulled both rods rearward, one stopped, and the other went a bit further back and stopped as well. the rod ends began in the same place, and ended in at different lengths of extension, while the ram bodies did not move, providing unarguable proof that there are at least two rams in existence with different strokes.

I will agree with you that it is possible to have your ram extend to its limit and not have your bolt extend past the back of the feedneck, however in order to do this you will have to shorten the length on the pump arm(either at the ram or back block, it doesn't matter which), and in doing so your back block will slap against your body. The other way is the cocking rod, which you agree is a bad idea(higher cocking pressure, mushrooming the lug slot, etc.)

In conclusion, it doesn't matter. Thanks to a previous post by minimag, it has been realized that it was probably a sticky detent, not rollbacks, causing breaks, and the rear travel is not a factor.

However, I still stand to say that once you set your back block at a notecard, paper, hair, whatever, distance from the body, you can no longer adjust your pump arm to limit rear travel of the bolt, because that would require shortening it, and you just extended it to set the gap for your back block. As I said earlier, twice, you cannot extend it to set your gap AND shorten it to limit rear travel at the same time. You have 7 years of cocker experience on me, and if you can tell me why I'm wrong feel free.

Last edited by barweezy; 09-09-2010 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 09-09-2010, 02:03 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Look what I found- AUTOCOCKER RAM
shocktech ram "Danny Love designed this Ram specifically for paintball. The Shocktech Ram has a slightly longer throw which reduces chopping paint. Unlike most other Ram's, ours is completely rebuildable with drop in parts."

I guess a longer throw is actually better... this supports the idea that my detent was the culprit causing my gun to chop, and totally crushes my idea that a long throw is a bad thing.

Does anybody know exactly how this would help prevent chops, maybe the a longer cycle time allowing more time for the next paintball to chamber?
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Old 09-09-2010, 03:54 PM   #26 (permalink)
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ya, your hypothesis seems incorrect to me... A longer cycle time would increase short stroking, which in turn increases chops. This sounds like fancy marketing for your $40

As to your original post, my favorite front block set up would be
1. Belsales hollowpoint 3-way
2. Palmer quicker ram
3. AKA SCMIII

Last edited by Sinisterways90; 09-13-2010 at 07:34 PM.
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Old 09-09-2010, 05:02 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sinisterways90 View Post
ya, your hypothesis seems incorrect to me... A longer cycle time would increase short stroking, which in turn increases chops. This sounds like fancy marketing for your $40

As to your original post, my favorite front block set up would be
1. Belsales hollowpoint 3-way
2. Palmer quickswitch
3. AKA SCMIII
Yeah it does smell of hype, I thought shocktech stuff was supposed to be pretty good though. Is there any other qualities of a 3-way besides stroke that would lead you to prefer one over the other? Also, I read the palmer quickswitch has a "lot of internal parts", sounds kinda odd to me.
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Old 09-09-2010, 05:54 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Is there any other qualities of a 3-way besides stroke that would lead you to prefer one over the other?
availability.
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Old 09-09-2010, 07:52 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barweezy View Post
I put them side by side, with the pistons both forward, and the rod ends lined up with eachother. Then, holding the rams in place to ensure they don't move, I pulled both rods rearward, one stopped, and the other went a bit further back and stopped as well. the rod ends began in the same place, and ended in at different lengths of extension, while the ram bodies did not move, providing unarguable proof that there are at least two rams in existence with different strokes.

I will agree with you that it is possible to have your ram extend to its limit and not have your bolt extend past the back of the feedneck, however in order to do this you will have to shorten the length on the pump arm(either at the ram or back block, it doesn't matter which), and in doing so your back block will slap against your body. The other way is the cocking rod, which you agree is a bad idea(higher cocking pressure, mushrooming the lug slot, etc.)

In conclusion, it doesn't matter. Thanks to a previous post by minimag, it has been realized that it was probably a sticky detent, not rollbacks, causing breaks, and the rear travel is not a factor.

However, I still stand to say that once you set your back block at a notecard, paper, hair, whatever, distance from the body, you can no longer adjust your pump arm to limit rear travel of the bolt, because that would require shortening it, and you just extended it to set the gap for your back block. As I said earlier, twice, you cannot extend it to set your gap AND shorten it to limit rear travel at the same time. You have 7 years of cocker experience on me, and if you can tell me why I'm wrong feel free.
I suspect that one of the rams you looked at has had the internal bumpers removed - that would increase the stroke slightly. Did you have the ends of the rams lined up, or just the rods? I just want to make sure I'm reading that right... And to repeat myself, there are some differences due to tolerances.

I believe I'm not explaining myself on what I mean with setting the ram up properly - if you have the ram set to "bottom out", you can then adjust the backblock on the pump arm accordingly, as well as the cocking rod. As far as setting the backblock slightly away from the body - I prefer a little contact, as it means I'm not slamming everything into the front of the ram as well.

In short - when I time a Cocker, I set the pump arm up on the ram first, then adjust my backblock, in essence "shortening" it twice. Does that make sense? I'm probably not expaining myself properly. It can be difficult depending on the type of pump arm you have - some are easier to do it with than others.

And no, it really doesn't matter at this point, and I should have probably PM'ed this to you.

Good luck tracking down the best pneumatics. That Shocktech ram looks like a STO ram to me, BTW... pretty sure Danny Love doesn't actually design anything.
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Originally Posted by HurtCow View Post
And God turned to Gabriel and said: “I shall create a land called Canada of outstanding natural beauty, with majestic mountains soaring with eagles, sparkling lakes abundant with bass and trout, forests full of elk and moose, and rivers stocked with salmon. I shall make the land rich in oil so the inhabitants prosper and call them Canadians, and they shall be praised as the friendliest of all people.”

“But Lord,” asked Gabriel, “Is this not too generous to these Canadians?”

And God replied, “Just wait and see the neighbors I shall inflict upon them.”
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Old 09-09-2010, 08:28 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jordan View Post
I suspect that one of the rams you looked at has had the internal bumpers removed - that would increase the stroke slightly. Did you have the ends of the rams lined up, or just the rods? I just want to make sure I'm reading that right... And to repeat myself, there are some differences due to tolerances.

I believe I'm not explaining myself on what I mean with setting the ram up properly - if you have the ram set to "bottom out", you can then adjust the backblock on the pump arm accordingly, as well as the cocking rod. As far as setting the backblock slightly away from the body - I prefer a little contact, as it means I'm not slamming everything into the front of the ram as well.

In short - when I time a Cocker, I set the pump arm up on the ram first, then adjust my backblock, in essence "shortening" it twice. Does that make sense? I'm probably not expaining myself properly. It can be difficult depending on the type of pump arm you have - some are easier to do it with than others.

And no, it really doesn't matter at this point, and I should have probably PM'ed this to you.

Good luck tracking down the best pneumatics. That Shocktech ram looks like a STO ram to me, BTW... pretty sure Danny Love doesn't actually design anything.
Yeah the shocktech does look similar to the sto, I've seen several rams that do. I noticed the kapp ram is actually called the sto as well...?

I bet danny love said "let there be a ram with a longer throw" and it was so. I've heard people refer to him as the god of cockers, hehe. What is his actual affiliation with shocktech anyway? I recall his name was mentioned when they released the 09 sfl.

pm'ed you btw.
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