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Old 03-20-2013, 08:37 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Looking into a new 'cocker - need some advice

Hi all,

I've recently returned to the sport after a long hiatus. The last time I played seriously was back in 2002-2003. During that time I built a "custom" autococker that basically turned into a waste of time and money. Highschool age me was just not patient or mechanically inclined enough to tolerate tinkering with a gun to get it to work correctly.

Now I'm looking to buy another autococker for nostalgia sake and I am wondering the following:

Which year and/or model autococker offers the best value and ease of use?

My basic requirements are:

1. Must be vertical feed
2. Must have a hinge frame
3. Not interested in the trilogy line

I've been thinking about trying to pick up an Orracle since, I believe, they came with an easily adjustable (toolless?) 3-way, easily adjustable (toolless) LPR and hinge frame and were vertical feed.

Looking at my criteria, it seems like my choices are limited to the

2003 Vertical
2003 Summer Edition
2004 ProStock
2005 ProStock
Outkast
Orracle
Black Magic

I'm open to non-WGP 'cockers, but I really know next to nothing about them.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:31 PM   #2 (permalink)
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The lowest ease of use autococker is a trilogy. Since that is out lemme see if I can help. If you want a cocker, a real welcome to the club cocker you need to accept that cockers need more setup than other guns. Learn to time them, it is a very simple 4 step process that anyone can learn and has videos and articles all over online. Very few shops still have someone who can tech a cocker. Once they are timed they are a very very reliable marker. As to WGP cockers, they are great and your choices will all work out fine. If you want to spend a little more I can't say enough about the CCM Series 5 (Its what I shoot) and CCM will still fix em and time em. Accept that its gonna take a little focus and tinkering and you have a great gun with outstanding character.

Oh yeah, if you want to wait a bit Empire is releasing a brand spankin new cocker in June with a barrel kit. Its a midblock slider frame, but it will have a warranty.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:54 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Hinge frames aren't popular anymore (except the eclipse which is also declining). All of the guns on your list are pretty common. You should be able to pick up the basic models for like $100-$125 and some of the nicer ones in the $200-$250 range. If you want to have some additional fun try an e-cocker.
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:32 PM   #4 (permalink)
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You can do it!

Grab anything 2k+ as that was their big model change. Most any Pre-2k part won't fit on a 2k+ WGP.

Skip the trilogy, their different idea, not as much aftermarket = harder to find parts eventually...

No matter what you get, you will be alright... once you learn the very basics of timing (4 major components, timed in a sequence, will make things happen right for you... pm me if you need help.)

The best things I can recommend to save you head-aches... and I don't know how easy they are to find nowadays, I bought extras but am guarding them like gold... [look for aftermarket singles on ebay and such]

Nylon threaded Hammer
Nylon threaded 3-way adjuster

They make it so you can re-time your autococker easily and more precisely even at the field if need be , without lock tight or additional effort.

Anyway, good luck at the hunt good Sir!

PS
Hinge or slider, you can simply reverse the 3-way inputs and you can put either on the Autococker.

I tried a shocktech swing, went back to a slider.


The old touted idea was that there was no swinging motion at all in the mix, all horozontal motion, which helped steady the actual gun [which most nowadays call a brick in weight] which led to better accuracy.

Did it work?

I dunno I just liked my slider better.

Just saying you can always add on a swinger later easily.




Edit
After looking at you list, I'd say grab the 03 Summer Version
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Last edited by Venarius; 03-21-2013 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:45 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Hi guys,

Thanks for the advice.

I feel fairly confident in my ability to learn to time, having read Chopra's article on the subject and then watched a variety of youtube videos describing the same. The more intricate details (i.e. "sweetspotting" the reg.) I think I can pick up once I get myself a chronograph.

My impression from way back when I built my own 'cocker was that hinge frames helped to decrease the chances of short stroking. Was this all an advertising ploy?

I'm not interested in shooting fast, but I am interested in having a smooth, reliably trigger.

Any opinions on adjustable, toolless LPRs and 3-ways? Back in the early 2000s, I remember a lot of people expressing how good of an idea they were as far as simply being able to twist a knob rather than whip out a tool, but more recently I've read of LPRs and 3-ways inadvertently backing themselves out, etc. I seem to recall a lot of resistance by WGP to adding these sort of features and then they finally did it with the Orracle.

Any suggestions for basic components, parts of accessories (like hoses, grease, etc) that I should pick up to outfit a parts kit?

If I'm going to start shooting a 'cocker I want to do it right, which means being prepared with needed back-up parts and starting with a decent, relatively functional gun that isn't someone's abused cast-off.

Also, if you guys know of any adult who is getting rid of a well-cared for 'cocker, or has been thinking of doing so, feel free to pass my name down the chain.

Thanks again!
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Last edited by Gigueand; 03-22-2013 at 02:53 AM.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:55 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Hey, I've always been into akalmp's Merlin line. Very smooth very reliable and most of all extremely consistent. If your looking for autococker advice your best bet will be to check out customcockers.com . Akalmp did make hinge frames and they are awesome. On cc website look up docfire , he has several Merlin's with hinges for sale but they are extremely rare and fetch a pretty penny. Docfire is a reputable member and a great cocker tech so you know your getting the real deal. Good luck
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Old 03-22-2013, 12:44 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Basic stuff that you need is a grease like Dow33 for the 3way, ram plunger, and reg pistons. Synthetic oil should be used on the rest of the moving parts. You'll probably want a foot of extra LP hose and maybe a few extra barbs.

As for a tooless LPR and 3way. The Orracle/CT 3ways are the only 3ways I can think of that are adjustable in the way you want. They are basically the same 3way but the Orracle has the knob (which isn't needed cause you're not going to mess with it a lot). The stock 2k5 3way might also be adjustable, cannot remember for sure. There are a lot of decent LPRs out there. The newest WGP LPRs like the Orracle, Outkast, STO, and stock 2k5 are all the same internally and work perfectly. Shocktech FGP LPR is great and cab sometimes be found cheap. Any KAPP Rhino LPR is a nice and simple LPR as well.

I honestly think you should get a 05 Prostock. They will be a little more than older guns but they are 110% worth it. It meets and exceeds all your criteria. They are WAY lighter, come with all STO pneumatics that don't need to be replaced, has the newest WGP hinge frame, nice HPR, it's pblocked, and the list goes on. The only thing it was missing out of the box was an on/off ASA. Some people think they aren't as nice as the older 'real' WGP bodied guns but I've never ran into one that wasn't amazing.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:08 AM   #8 (permalink)
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As to short stroking a hinge vs slider, yes I believe that short stroking a hinge is harder. However I have my cockers set up with sliders and I have the timing so tight that I cannot get them to fire without cocking no matter how slow I pull. The slider has a better feel to me as it does to most people, so don't let short stroking be the stopping factor for a slide frame. If you want a hinge great. Any post 2k cocker will be everything you want, wgp got it together and made great cockers. Pick up a sto or outkast if you can, nicer pneumatics and what not. Look on customcockers, most the stuff over there will be good to go. Btw, my 2k+ wgp sto has not needed to be adjusted or retimed for 2 years after initial setup and its all stock.
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Old 03-30-2013, 05:32 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I have three cockers a 99 SFL, a 2000 VF and a 02 Black Magic.. the Black Magic has the eclipse frame which I was skeptical but is ultra smooth.. My sugestion is to upgrade the frame on any of them from the carbon composite to an aluminum dye, shocktech, or even a stock Black Magic frame just for starters.

If you want to keep the standard slider frame make sure you do a full pull and a release..I learned this the hard way with bolt jammin and choppin paint. I also used and still have the second gen shocktech swing trigger frame pictured here in my for sale listing..
Autococker and Automag parts
The oem Black Magic is right above and is the origional from my 02.
The plastic frames have too much slop for my likeing and dont feel as solid as the alloy.

The best thing about the Trillogy is making it into a pump... or a door stop but more fun as a pump.
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Old 04-02-2013, 09:29 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Thanks for the advice, guys.

I picked up a 2K3 model!
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