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Old 10-12-2006, 07:37 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Cocker Operating pressures

I'm building a cocker, and have been wondering about what pressure I'm shooting for. I'm talking about valve pressure, since I know low lpr pressure means less chops. But what does high/low valve pressure actually do for the performance?
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Old 10-12-2006, 08:52 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Old 10-12-2006, 09:55 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Ideally, you should shoot for whatever pressure gives your gun the best efficiency. This, to a large degree, will be determined by your choice of valve. Stock valves (2k+) are generally best around 350-450 psi. Each of the various aftermarket valves has a particular "target" pressure. For example, AKA's Tornado valve is designed to operate in the neighborhood of 200 psi. It's important, though, to make sure that you look at the whole airpath. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and a gun can only flow as much as its most restrictive component.
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Old 10-14-2006, 12:22 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I'm looking at getting an AKA valve, but right now I got a Rat valve. I'm also running a Sidewinder, and I'm probably going to pick up an AKA bolt as well, so I'd say my chain is pretty strong. I just wasn't sure how the operating pressure related to performance. I know some people love low pressure, but I've seen guns running just as well on high pressure.
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Old 10-16-2006, 10:39 AM   #5 (permalink)
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The Rat should run just about as low as the Tornado - somewhere in the 200-250 range, and the AKA reg should have no problems keeping a consistant low input pressure.

Properly tuned, a "low pressure" gun doesn't necessarily perform any better than a comparably-tuned "high pressure" gun. The primary difference is that at a lower pressure, you need to deliver a larger volume of propellant to accelerate the ball to an adequate velocity. Higher pressure guns will use less propellant per shot. As a result, low-pressure setups generally run better on HPA (using high volumes of CO2 very quickly will seriously drop the tank pressure and lead to tank freezes), while high-pressure setups generally run better on CO2 (because they make better use of CO2's expansion abilities - a small volume of CO2 can do just as much "work" as a larger volume of compressed air).

In very warm weather, you might be able to get away with CO2 on a low pressure gun, but once you start leaning on the trigger, you're pushing your luck.


But, back to the topic at hand,
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Old 10-27-2006, 01:00 PM   #6 (permalink)
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The primary difference is that at a lower pressure, you need to deliver a larger volume of propellant to accelerate the ball to an adequate velocity. Higher pressure guns will use less propellant per shot. As a result, low-pressure setups generally run better on HPA (using high volumes of CO2 very quickly will seriously drop the tank pressure and lead to tank freezes), while high-pressure setups generally run better on CO2 (because they make better use of CO2's expansion abilities - a small volume of CO2 can do just as much "work" as a larger volume of compressed air).

True - LP doesn't equate a better performing gun, but it doesn't require a large volume of air to move the ball. If a gun isn't set up correctly, that happens, but with the correct springing, a LP gun will use as much, or as little, air as a HP setup. Going to a LP setup simply allows you to use more of the tank - IE: you can use more of a HPA fill.

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Old 10-27-2006, 01:55 PM   #7 (permalink)
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*** The following post contains generalizations about Physics. Things have been simplified for clarity. ***

Actually, LP does require a larger volume of air than an HP gun.

The point you're getting stuck on Jordan is that it isn't necessarily using as much ENERGY from the tank. When talking about efficiency and paintball guns people like to toss around the terms pressure and volume a lot, but they're missing the big picture. Efficiency is about energy, and how much is lost. Moving a mass (a paintball) some displacement (the length of the barrel) is doing Work (in the physics sense W=Fd). Doing work takes energy. Compressed gasses store energy. We're using a paintball gun to convert the stored energy in a compressed gas into energy to do the work of shooting a paintball. The energy required to shoot a paintball (3grams) at 91.4 m/s (~300fps) is ~13Joules. An efficient marker will take close to 13J of the energy from the tank. An inefficient marker will take more.

Pressure and Volume are related, as by the ideal gas law (Pv = nRT).
n = the number of moles of gas you have. The actual "quantity" of the gas compressed
R = is the gas constant. The value is unimportant, as long as you remember that it's a constant.
T = is the temperature.

So it follows in order to get the same "amount" of compressed gas, which holds a fixed amount of energy if you raise the pressure, you have to decrease the volume and vice versa.
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Old 10-27-2006, 02:43 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I'm looking at getting an AKA valve, but right now I got a Rat valve. I'm also running a Sidewinder, and I'm probably going to pick up an AKA bolt as well, so I'd say my chain is pretty strong.
What about your hammer, springs and bolt?

So many people forget about these things, and there's so much fun to be had re-springing and agonizing over the hammer weight

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Old 10-27-2006, 09:39 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Lightbulb ok...my 2 cents

alright, i ran cockers exclusively for 14 yrs and had several differnt setups, what follows is from mye xperince...

inlet prssure in reg should be 300 to 400 max

front block pressure should be around 60 to 80 max, any higher and you'll blow the tophats off and the hoses

valuve pressure should be around 200 with a stock valvue...but you can get lower if you put a vulomizer in the front block and are using a 2k+ body....some guys say taht no vluomizer is neccesary with post 99's but really neccesary for pre 99's....

hammer, heavy hammer = longer "dwell" (if you will) on the value pin, lower pressure for more volume....

not too many out there except for the shocktech heavy hammer 9brass with steel strike plate) and the tungstin free flow hammers, but i would not advise the ff hammer as it has/can casue major damage to your internal body but this is dependent on who made you body and the amount of immpurities in it, safe bet is the brass/steel hammer..


value....THROW THE RAT AWAY...seriously man...its draw backs outweight its design...stick with the stock valve, or if you must spend some money on a new valve get the palmer one, its the nicest one you can get besides the stock...

and a madman spring kit.....it will give you the best options for adjustment....

i used to get 1800 + shots out of a 45/45 hpa with my frankincocker....but tahst beast was a monster, i ahd three gauges on it, lots of brass front phumatics, the shoctech hammer, qev's, and a brass jj barrel...shot f'in darts, and it had about a 3/4 mm trigger pull, and i could mech somewhere around 12+ ball a sec with it, really..i was out shootin' my revvy with it....if ya need more advice hit up "moody paintball" ..he used to be a staple on a.i.r. and he has excelent tech articles...."wolf" knows him from there...
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