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Old 11-14-2006, 11:20 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Martelo, I'm going to play devil's advocate and go back to your original question where you asked basically if an autococker is a good marker for your son.

Now I'm just getting into this but I love my mechanical stuff and out of the 7 markers I've already gotten I love my two autocockers and there's a third on it's way. But I have to say that if you want easy to maintain and simple then I'd suggest something other than an autococker.

To give you an idea... I've got a Piranha R6 with a Smart parts Linear barrel on it. I've took out my new Piranha EVO and Spyder Pilot ACS. The cheap R6 was just as accurate as the fancy stuff. Now I grant you that I have yet to take out the autocockers along with my brand new J&J barrel kit and see how those perform but I'm not expecting miracles more than I've got already. That cheap as dirt Piranha R6 with the Linear can shoot one foot round groupings at about 100 feet. About the same as the other two and about what I understand is pretty much standard. The key seems to be the barrels. Get a good barrel, buy the good paint that fits it well and it seems that it doesn't really matter what you use to provide the air source to push the ball down the quality barrel. And at the risk of pushing the cheaper stepchild after play maintanence is literally child's play. Push out the pin and draw out all the moving parts, wipe down, push a clean barrel swab down the body holes, oil lightly and push it all back in and replace the pin. If that takes longer than 60 seconds it's because you're talking too much. And the mechanical trigger frame is nicely sensitive with a very acceptable short travel.

Yeah it's cheap and a lot of folks will say it's basic but with that barrel it's a great marker for me. I know already that I'll also love playing with the autocockers but there's a magic about the simplicity of that Piranha that draws me.

I've seen lots to suggest that autocockers are reliable once set up as long as stuff doesn't move around but there's a lot of the "guts" of an autococker on the outside of the body where it's vulnerable to damage.

And then there's the inbetween ground..... just buy a basic *shudder* Ion and be done with it.....

.... ooooooo I'm going to pay for that last bit from BOTH camps...

Just a thought but how about telling us what markers you CAN get easily over there that are in your price range and we'll suggest the best of what's available.
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Last edited by Railgun; 11-15-2006 at 01:48 AM.
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Old 11-14-2006, 11:52 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I say with the current price flux in the market, stay away from low end blowbacks. I've never really liked them to begin with.

As far as ease of use, cleaning, and maintenence go, I'd recommend a Classic Automag or a Trilogy Autococker.


'Mags will go through hell and back for ya. Seriously. They're easy to mod and upgrade, so it'll grow with your son as well. This one of the greatest markers ever built in my opinion (actually, my favorite). Not to mention you can find good quality Classic's w/ Lvl 10 installed for around $150 either on the B/S/T's or eBay (there's even a guy selling them for $60 a pop over on AO!). For the ammount of performance, you can't really beat that price.

Also, I would highly recommend a Trilogy Autococker. They are cheap, yes, but built surprisingly well. The valve is set up to handle unregulated CO2, it has an integrated 4-way (no timing issues), a no hassle preadjusted LPR, and is set up fairly well pneumatically. You can find them used and refurbished on eBay for less than $100. PMP (I think) now even makes a pump kit for them, and an eBlade or eTrilogy frame can be had inexpensively, just for customizability and versatility. There are LPR fittings so you can add your own LPR, as well as timing rods, specially made for these, so tuning to optimum performance is relatively easy. I believe they take 2k+ internals (don't quote me on this) and take any standard 'Cocker trigger frame. For the price, this is also quite the versital peice of work. Not to mention they shoot well.

There are plenty of other guns out there, but these are the two I recommend. Hope this helps!
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Old 11-15-2006, 01:00 AM   #23 (permalink)
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My two cents

First,no one asked how old your son is. They tend to loose intrest fast if they are young.So how old is he? Is he mechanically inclined,or will you be doing the maint on the gun? I would like to quote Robbie Choppra"The auto coker is the perfect canvas". Meaning the milling that can be done to it is unlimited. I really don't know anything about a Mag,or blazer,But I do know about cockers. They are simple to work on. If you can take your VM apart or a Spyder,then you can do a cocker. There is no "BLACK ART" to timing or building a Cocker. It's like any paintball gun out there. It just takes time to get it shooting the way you want. I have taken many hits in the Pneumatics and hose,and no damage has ever occured. I don't even use "high hats" to hold on my hose.So we have that "wifes tail" out of the way. There are three adjustments you need to make on the cocker.

1-Back block gap
2-bolt travel
3-hammer lug 0.060

LPR and reg adjustments are up to you, But sledge hammers come preadjusted. Adjustable LPRs are simple. Adjust out,then start pulling the trigger while turning the LPR knob (under air pressure). This will build up your cocking pressure for your bolt to travel and gun to fire. It's all about personal preference. To be honest with you,I have a cocker that I haven't cleaned or taken apart since 2003 and it still shoots great. Just a little oil and clean the barrel.

My take on electros. WHOOPIE Just an over priced Spyder is what half of them are. Half the owners can't even fix them. "I have to send it to an airtech" I own a few electros,Timmys,Angels, Rainmakers and a few others over the yrs. Nothing hard about them. DM's,give me a schematic or a broken one and I bet I won't need an airtech. Just hit the internet and get all the answers. That's my opinion.

Here's a Cocker that took me about 20 mins to put together from scratch. Not hard at all.



Here is what I had done to this body.



Here's another From this to that.




Here's what the valve and hammer look like. Hmmm similar to spyder



Well all this is just my opinion. I'm Positive others won't agree with me. However,they all operate the same,on pressure and cocking except the EPIC(boltless design and uses shutter door). I personally prefer the slider trigger. QEV's on the Ram,I think they are just a fad.Brass Eagle used them for yrs on the Rainmaker and everyone said they sucked. Then some idiot decided to put them on a cocker and now they are all the RAGE lol.I've been playing since 87" and I've seen them all. Some of these new players think an Angel LED is old school lol. I would reccommend an A5 if you don't want to drop a bundle. Then again,you really need to look at what is the main gun in your country and what repair parts are plentiful. Hope this helps.
Later,
Blackrain

Last edited by blackrain; 11-15-2006 at 01:26 AM.
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Old 11-15-2006, 07:53 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Thanks for all your help.

The kid is 18 now, just started to play the game, but he's having lot's of fun with an old mirage. I had him playing with a rental spyder, but it's the mirage he enjoys the most.
Like many of you have advised, i've been looking on ebay for a sweet deal. Found a few on the Trilogy, but, honestly i fear the Customs.
Last week, my good friend Greywolf sent me a few parts for my VM, and the people there wanted to have it looked by the police in order to see if there was any possibility of making a gun out of those parts. I had to put huge smile and ask polite to take them home, because i had a huge game the next day. I got lucky.
The price range i'm willing to go is about 300+/- Euros.
That rang puts me in place for Tippmann's (the X7 looks promising) the Trilogy or the Prostock. Whay about the VL's? Any good?

Thanks for all your help.
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Old 11-15-2006, 08:55 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Martelo,

I had several Mirages from a few years back. They're built like tanks (indistructable) but very lightweight. The AutoMag is a very similarly sized marker, and is also very reliable. With the new valves, they can be extremely fast.

That being said, I'm an Autococker fan myself. I love the closed-bolt pneumatic markers like the Cocker, Blazer, Typhoon, and Stroker, but given the amount of time I currently have to play, I've opted to sell most of my gear and grab a cheap mechanical Cocker and enjoy the game.

Cockers can be very fussy if messed with on a regular basis, or if "timed" to make it the fastest or lightest trigger pull. Most cockers, if you can get them properly timed, will require nothing more than oil on the bolt and a drop or two in the ASA to keep them running for a long time.

My suggestion is if you have the funds to pick up a cheap, older Autococker (most can be had for $100-$150 USD, I have one for sale with a pump kit for $175 in the Buy/Sell/Trade section for members) and keep the mirage. That way, you're not out a ton of cash for a new gun and it gives him the chance to get a better feel for the Cocker. They take some getting used to on the trigger pull, but once you're used to them, they are very rewarding as far as accuracy goes. At 18, I'm sure he'll be able to understand the mechanics of how they work and be able to learn enough about them to have a great time (and still have the Mirage as a back-up).

It's very hard to lead you in one direction or another because a marker is all about personal preference. Is your son "drawn" towards the Cocker, or just a newer gun in general?

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Old 11-15-2006, 09:18 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Honestly is not drawn towards anything.
I'm trying to lead him into the right direction. It's supposed to be a XMas gift, and he'll enjoy any marker I give him...
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Old 11-15-2006, 09:18 AM   #27 (permalink)
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blackrain - There's more to it then that.

4 - LPR Pressure
5 - HPR Pressure
6 - 3-way timing
7 (option I guess) - Choosing the right spring combo

It took you TWENTY Minutes to put together a sniper? For shame... :P Just kidding. But the time to assemble/maintain is higher on an Autococker than a Sniper.


My $0.02, an E-Cocker was the first "high-end" I ever played with, and I really liked it. Then I got to toy around with a few mechanical cockers, and that was even better. Now I've owned/built/maintained/assembled a half dozen 'Cockers, and a half dozen Snipers, they're really great markers to learn with, toy around, and try out new stuff on.

If you're just looking for an "Air-up-and-go" mechanical marker with very low maintenance, that's reliable and won't break the bank, I suggest an Automag. 'Cockers take some knowledge and experience, when you run into an issue, but once you get them set the way you like, don't screw with it and you're set!

But what really does it for me is the feel of it. Especially with a KAPP Slider frame and Hogue panel grips with palm swells
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Old 11-15-2006, 09:42 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Yes 20 mins for a sniper. I had to take the pics for the DIY sec lol. Yes I forgot the 3way,but LPR I did mention. As far as timing on a sniper,yes there is that to. The hammer lug needs adjustment and the cocking rod itself. I usually start off with and equal amount of threads on each side of the rod and go from there. I use the cocking block for adjusting the bolts travel.That being the distance the bolt needs to travel back to clear the breech. I owned my first cocker for 3 days before I took it apart and retimed it all. I used the Bud Orr video he used to sell. They are simple guns. Once they are timed and tuned to your liking,leave them alone. Like any marker. I think the problem with Cockers are half the idiots that buy them. Instead of learning about them,they just throw upgrades on them right away. Why because their Idiot friends did the same thing lol. I'm a passionate cocker owner,I hate the company,but I love the gun. There are times I choose to play with a Stingray too lol. So I'm not just a one gun person. Personally I would recommend an
A-5,cause let's admit,Tippys are abuse friendly and built for the beginner. Let your son progress in paintball,plus you can also make the A-5 Electronic at a later date. That is a good opyion. I also see that A-5s resell at a decent price. I'm even getting one myself very soon. Hope this helps.
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Old 11-15-2006, 10:17 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Yes it helps.

It's like i said before, it's hard to choose from so many good markers out there.
Btw, the mag is out of the question since I dont know any store that sells them here...
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Old 11-15-2006, 11:02 AM   #30 (permalink)
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If customs is going to be a problem, you may want to shy away from the Tippman markers as they look particularly gun-like.

I've shot nearly everything out there, and nothing can compare to my Blazer or my Mags for ease of use and ease of maintenance. I couldn't reccomend either of them enough.

Autocockers are plenty nifty, and I've shot many and built a few, but they do require a bit of know-how. Although TECHNICALLY it is correct that there are just 3-4 adjustments that you have to worry about, they all affect each other, so finding out just exactly WHAT is wrong can turn into a nightmare.

Say you're chopping paint. Your timing rod could have backed out from the 4 way throwing off the cycle, OR, your pump rod could have backed out, letting the bolt open too far, and letting one and a half balls into the chamber instead of just one, OR your LPR could have creeped up, making the bolt come forward with too much force. Change any one of these settings and it has an affect on the operation of the rest. So you can see how it's a bit of mechanics, and a bit of art. If your son likes to mess around with his gun, the older cockers are a great choice. If you just want to play, and not have to messs with anything, the new Trilogy's are a great choice.
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