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Do Proprietary Seals Concern You?

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    Do Proprietary Seals Concern You?

    When you're purchasing a product, are proprietary seals something you worry you for use over time?

    I consider my guns (mechanical anyway) as a forever item (they will outlast me if treated right). Metal or plastic/delrin pieces can be replicated pretty easily, but seals are a bit more of an investment in molds, etc.

    What does everyone else think on this issue?


    Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


    #2
    I dislike them.
    If a product is exceptional in some way I might still buy it.

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      #3
      It factors into buying decisions, for sure.
      And God turned to Gabriel and said: β€œI shall create a land called Canada of outstanding natural beauty, with majestic mountains soaring with eagles, sparkling lakes abundant with bass and trout, forests full of elk and moose, and rivers stocked with salmon. I shall make the land rich in oil so the inhabitants prosper and call them Canadians, and they shall be praised as the friendliest of all people.”

      β€œBut Lord,” asked Gabriel, β€œIs this not too generous to these Canadians?”

      And God replied, β€œJust wait and see the neighbors I shall inflict upon them."

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        #4
        I should mention that by proprietary seals, I'm talking about anything that isn't a widely available and produced oring. Included would be things like reg seats, square/shaped seals, and proprietary orings.

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          #5
          They are a concern ... But I've always seen ways around them ...
          seals are easy to make, and I've had great results 3d printing them in the last few years.
          Orings are a different story ... Among the guns that have proprietary o-ring I have ATS, Vector, C3, thumper ...

          It's the same for every parts, older boards are increasingly difficult to repair, parts harder to find 20 years after the company went under ...

          If this is a concern, stay away from them.
          If you really like the gun, play with it until it's dead ... Then you can sell it or find a way around it ...

          Any specific seals your thinking about?
          ​​​​​​
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            #6
            My ICE Epic says YES, they do concern me.

            Unless your device is doing something mind-blowingly spectacular, I doubt you reallllllllly needed that custom seal.
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            • dano_____

              dano_____

              commented
              Editing a comment
              This x1000. Those damn energized seals are the reason I don't own those guns anymore. What would have possessed someone to use them in one of the only moving parts of that gun??

            • XEMON

              XEMON

              commented
              Editing a comment
              I'd love to pick one up to mess with ... My thumper needs a sibling ...

            #7
            Proprietary seals are such a pain ....i let go my upgraded vm 68 in 2018 because even though my particular gun was working fine , the hammer did have that proprietary weird squared off oring .

            Every time i looked it , it looked like a ticking time bomb to me. So i decided it would be easier to sell a working gun, so i offloaded it.

            I also feel it is such a dumb decision on the manufacturers part, for what, to try to make a couple bucks on that gun 10 years into the future, by selling a proprietary seal?

            If proprietary seals are the only solution to a design challenge, then i would cut the company some slack, but if they could use more common seals, i think that is a good idea for customer confidence and support


            Last edited by Meleager7; 04-25-2021, 10:21 AM.
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              #8
              Originally posted by Meleager7 View Post
              If proprietary seals are the only solution to a design challenge, then i would cut the company some slack, but if they could use more common seals, i think that is a good idea for customer confidence and support
              I agree, it doesn't makes sense on a business point of view ... But usually this is driven by design ... You may gain a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of whatever spec you're looking at by using a proprietary seal instead of a of the shelf ring. In a niche business that is attempting to outdo each other and sell "magic" to the customer (us) they go that route.

              ​​​​​​I Know the problem of proprietary seals too well. ​The company I work for makes machines that have proprietary seal, it is design driven and cost us more than using off the shelf seals (I spent the last year testing every solenoid on the market and all failed within a week) ... We had to commission a solenoid manufacturer to makes us seals for $90 each (for just the seal: ~3/8ODx1/8thick)
              Love my brass ... Love my SSR ... Hard choices ...

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                #9
                I'm not concerned about a particular seal, I was just thinking that eventually companies will go under or stop producing items, and seals will dry up. I mean the vast majority of guns made nowadays use some sort of proprietary seal.

                Yes, there will always be work arounds. The VM guys spin the hammers on a lathe and use an oring, and I've stacked different sized orings to use in place of proprietary seals, but something that simple isn't always possible.

                Maybe I just have the wrong mindset. I'd like everything I have to be usable for well past my time if I treat it well.

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                  #10
                  I used to be concerned about it till I started working on solutions to the problem.... I have an affinity for VM68s as most people know and the hammer seal on them is one of the hardest parts to find a decent one of since most of the parts made currently don't last as long as the original. So I came up with a solution and modified a stock Hammer to accept an off-the-shelf hardware store oring. Seems to take care of the problem pretty well and there's a hell of a lot easier to get now.

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                    #11
                    Originally posted by Toestr View Post
                    I'm not concerned about a particular seal, I was just thinking that eventually companies will go under or stop producing items, and seals will dry up. I mean the vast majority of guns made nowadays use some sort of proprietary seal.

                    Yes, there will always be work arounds. The VM guys spin the hammers on a lathe and use an oring, and I've stacked different sized orings to use in place of proprietary seals, but something that simple isn't always possible.

                    Maybe I just have the wrong mindset. I'd like everything I have to be usable for well past my time if I treat it well.

                    Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
                    That's the VM Hammer mod that I came up with that you're referring to it does work and it does work well if done correctly

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                      #12
                      This sort of thing affects anyone that likes using older equipment.

                      Forgotten Weapons had a series where Ian bought a WW2 French machine gun. Legal, transferable and functional, but took an obsolete and unobtainable cartridge. He had to have one company produce a run of brass, and another load them.

                      There was a story years ago about Jay Leno trying to restore an odd old car, I can't remember what. He needed a gear, I think for the differential. It was hypoid [i]and[/] hypocycloidial. He had to find some 80 year old guy who still knew how to set up an old WW2 gear hobber- fully mechanical- to make one. No modern shop even with cutting-edge equipment could make it.

                      In our little niche, there's Automag wire detents, E-Blade eyes, LED Angel solenoids- and batteries- Racegun batteries and button pads, DYE eye pipes, Flatline reg seals and a ton of other things.

                      Some can be fabbed at home, others modified... few are fatal to the gun. Just before the Great Carter Crash, somebody in the VM section had been working on a run of proper replacement square O-rings for the VM. I recently started making replacement detents for both styles of the Angel A1. I've made replacement rectangular seals for the Equalizer. Somebody made a run of Racegun batteries- though I'm not sure anyone ever found a source for those oddball charger connections. I've seen battery conversions for the LED, and of course we had mods for the proprietary battery pack for the old Shocker, back when you could still buy new ones off the shelf.

                      It's a concern, yes. And it's a good idea for a modern manufacturer to use off-the-shelf whenever possible, but that's not always possible.

                      Doc.
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                        #13
                        I hate special proprietary parts. Especially where items that need to be replace regularly. Markers outlast the manufacturing of the parts all the time.

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                          #14
                          I think there's also a much wider supply of those "proprietary" parts than people think, even if they can be hard to track down. Square and X rings, V cup seals, and some others can be found deep in certain catalogs.

                          But yeah... it's terrible when they truly are proprietary. A sign of bad design, usually.
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                            #15
                            As the guy people bring stuff to to fix. I like being able to find parts and seals at any hardware store.

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