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How to Tune a Gen-E Matrix

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    How to Tune a Gen-E Matrix

    Hey folks, what is the technique to tuning a Gen-E matrix. I thought I saw somewhere I have to adjust the LPR as well as main reg pressure, as I'm chrono'ing the gun. Any advice would be great !

    Here is the beaut in question, that needs some sweet tuning action!

    '96 RF Mini Cocker, '95 RF Autococker, Trilogy SF Autococker (mech'ed) , 68-Automag Classic, Banzai Splash Minimag, Gen-E Matrix, Shoebox Shocker 4x4, Warp Feed Rainmaker, Montneel Z-1, Tippmann Pro-Carbine, Tippmann Mini-Lite, Tippmann Model-98, Tippmann SL-68II , Tippmann 68-Special, Spyder .50 cal Opus/Opus-A , Liquid CO2 Spyder Victor II , Tippmann .50 Cal Cronus , Gog Enmey .50 cal , Tippmann Vert ASA 68-Carbine

    Meleager7 Feedback: https://www.mcarterbrown.com/forum/b...ager7-feedback

    #2
    There are differing opinions on how to go about fine tuning the classic Matrix. One method is to 1) turn the LPR all the way in, essentially shutting it off by allowing full pressure to flow through it, then 2) adjusting the HPR until you get 280-290 FPS, then 3) slowly backing out the LPR over a chrono in 1/4 tun increments, until you get the lock bump which is a 10-FPS drop from 290's to 280's, then your regs are essentially sweetspotted. HOWEVER, not every setup allows for you to turn the LPR all the way in and bypass it, and still be able to cycle the gun, so most people just setup the HPR to around 280-290, and then you turn the LPR out as much as possible while shooting to get the lowest possible OP pressure. Just make sure you're able to shoot rapidly without any pressure drop off / air starvation. That method also works well, and you still get a very sweet, smooth shooting Trix

    And of course theres always fine tuning the o-ring and lubricant in the drivetrain/ bolt system itself for lowest possible drag / friction, etc which also allows for the lowest OP pressure. A good lube is recommended, (i.e. Slick Honey) one that doesnt cake or gunk, which is why a thin coating of a high-quality lube is highly recommended

    I hope this helps you. That's a very clean Gen-E, BTW. It's lovely.

    Kind regards,

    TMG

    Comment


      #3
      Since the two regs basically work independently and don't have much crossover you can just set the LPR until you get the gun to cycle then another half turn or so then set your HPR to field velocity.

      If you really want to mess with the gun then the LPR and dwell are co-dependent and you can balance those two against each other. For a snappier, more efficient shot, lower the dwell until you see velocity drop and then bump it back up with an extra half ms to compensate for temp swings. The LPR can be tuned in basically the same way. Lower until the gun gets sluggish or loses velocity then up it some with a bit extra.

      Not much tuning on spools to be done though. Since it's a fixed dump chamber all you're doing is just making the shot feel a certain sort of way. I like mine super slow and gentle on paint so I go 20ms dwell and then set everything else to suit. If you do the tophat mod then you'll be able to drop dwell quite a bit and get the gun snappier but also more efficient.

      Comment


      • Meleager7

        Meleager7

        commented
        Editing a comment
        I'm not sure I'll be messing with dwell too much , to find the perfect feeling shot. I just want this gun to shoot ! Before really knowing much about tuning it, I had left the LPR at the setting it came with, and only adjusted the HPR. I was getting bad first and 2nd shot drop off during game play, but after the third shot it was back up to 280's .....not sure sure if the LPR was the culprit, or the wrong grease (i used SP dow 33) or both!

      • gabe
        gabe commented
        Editing a comment
        Make sure you up the first shot drop off setting. Because of bolt stick there's an automatic dwell increase setting to fix that. You should also up your LPR pressure. Of all people Mike *douchebag* TechPB on Youtube has a great video going over tuning a DM7 which is a very similar process.

      #4
      This thread is pertinent to my interests.
      And God turned to Gabriel and said: “I shall create a land called Canada of outstanding natural beauty, with majestic mountains soaring with eagles, sparkling lakes abundant with bass and trout, forests full of elk and moose, and rivers stocked with salmon. I shall make the land rich in oil so the inhabitants prosper and call them Canadians, and they shall be praised as the friendliest of all people.”

      “But Lord,” asked Gabriel, “Is this not too generous to these Canadians?”

      And God replied, “Just wait and see the neighbors I shall inflict upon them."

      Comment


      • Meleager7

        Meleager7

        commented
        Editing a comment
        I figured you'd find this topic useful, considering Matrix's just seem to fall in your lap!

      #5
      Originally posted by the_matrix_guy View Post
      There are differing opinions on how to go about fine tuning the classic Matrix. One method is to 1) turn the LPR all the way in, essentially shutting it off by allowing full pressure to flow through it, then 2) adjusting the HPR until you get 280-290 FPS, then 3) slowly backing out the LPR over a chrono in 1/4 tun increments, until you get the lock bump which is a 10-FPS drop from 290's to 280's, then your regs are essentially sweetspotted. HOWEVER, not every setup allows for you to turn the LPR all the way in and bypass it, and still be able to cycle the gun, so most people just setup the HPR to around 280-290, and then you turn the LPR out as much as possible while shooting to get the lowest possible OP pressure. Just make sure you're able to shoot rapidly without any pressure drop off / air starvation. That method also works well, and you still get a very sweet, smooth shooting Trix

      And of course theres always fine tuning the o-ring and lubricant in the drivetrain/ bolt system itself for lowest possible drag / friction, etc which also allows for the lowest OP pressure. A good lube is recommended, (i.e. Slick Honey) one that doesnt cake or gunk, which is why a thin coating of a high-quality lube is highly recommended

      I hope this helps you. That's a very clean Gen-E, BTW. It's lovely.

      Kind regards,

      TMG
      That 2nd scenario describes my gun, where if I turn the LPR all the way in, the gun stops shooting. I think I'll try backing the LPR out just until it cycles again, and then HPR adjust to 290, then back out the LPR more like you said until the velocity drops to 280s

      I lubed the gun with smart parts dow 33 and does seem to have that gunky consistency. I just ordered some Hater Sauce to try. Is that stuff similar to slick honey?
      '96 RF Mini Cocker, '95 RF Autococker, Trilogy SF Autococker (mech'ed) , 68-Automag Classic, Banzai Splash Minimag, Gen-E Matrix, Shoebox Shocker 4x4, Warp Feed Rainmaker, Montneel Z-1, Tippmann Pro-Carbine, Tippmann Mini-Lite, Tippmann Model-98, Tippmann SL-68II , Tippmann 68-Special, Spyder .50 cal Opus/Opus-A , Liquid CO2 Spyder Victor II , Tippmann .50 Cal Cronus , Gog Enmey .50 cal , Tippmann Vert ASA 68-Carbine

      Meleager7 Feedback: https://www.mcarterbrown.com/forum/b...ager7-feedback

      Comment


      • the_matrix_guy

        the_matrix_guy

        commented
        Editing a comment
        I've never used Hater Sauce, seems OK from what I can tell. The first choice will always be Slick Honey, and DYE Slick lube is very good for spools as well. But Slick Honey is legendary among classic Matrix and Shocker guys. And yeah, I'd stay away from Smart Parts DOW, that lube adds drag/resistance and it's low performing.

      • Meleager7

        Meleager7

        commented
        Editing a comment
        I’ll try to scoop up some slick honey soon too, to try out

      #6
      Originally posted by Meleager7 View Post

      That 2nd scenario describes my gun, where if I turn the LPR all the way in, the gun stops shooting. I think I'll try backing the LPR out just until it cycles again, and then HPR adjust to 290, then back out the LPR more like you said until the velocity drops to 280s

      I lubed the gun with smart parts dow 33 and does seem to have that gunky consistency. I just ordered some Hater Sauce to try. Is that stuff similar to slick honey?
      No matter which method you use, you always set your high pressure /output first. Remember when we still rocked adjustable tanks? We always set the output / high pressure first, then your low / operating pressure next. Even now, you set your HPR first, even though you're re-regulating the 800-850 PSI coming off the tank. The method where you bypass the LPR by turning it all the way in is actually the official method, but you need high end regulators on both ends -- no less than AKA's or Palmers, you might get away with a DYE gen-II Bullet or Trinity LPR here and there but you still need a really good HPR with a high flow and high recharge like an AKA or Palmer or DYE Hyper-II. But the second method where you set the HPR first at around 290 then back out the LPR until you get the lowest OP pressure possible, while still feeding the gun 100% consistently during raid fire is 100% acceptable. As i mentioned, it'll still grant ya a very smooth shooting Trix. And I wouldn't even F with the dwell. Stock Dwell settings are perfectly fine and you wont really see any performance improvements by lowering it. In fact, you might run into cycling (FSDO) first shot drop off issues.

      We ran plenty of tests with varying dwell settings and we arrived at the stock settings for a reason. As long as you use a low friction lube, stock settings are adequate even in cold weather.

      Best regards

      Comment


        #7
        I would add that you need to turn the LPR up enough for the gun to function before setting the HPR. If you don't have the LPR up then the gun won't fire to even be able to chrono to field speed. Not sure if that was clear or not.

        I'm not sure on the dwell settings. Depending how the gun is set up you can get a faster/harder shot or slower/softer shot by tweaking dwell. It's a minute difference but noticeable. Plus it'll affect your max ROF if you have an uncapped board. Didn't a bunch of guys back in the day improve efficiency by lowering the dwell so that the bolt returned before the entire dump chamber was released?

        Comment


          #8
          Originally posted by gabe View Post
          I would add that you need to turn the LPR up enough for the gun to function before setting the HPR. If you don't have the LPR up then the gun won't fire to even be able to chrono to field speed. Not sure if that was clear or not.

          I'm not sure on the dwell settings. Depending how the gun is set up you can get a faster/harder shot or slower/softer shot by tweaking dwell. It's a minute difference but noticeable. Plus it'll affect your max ROF if you have an uncapped board. Didn't a bunch of guys back in the day improve efficiency by lowering the dwell so that the bolt returned before the entire dump chamber was released?
          As I alluded earlier, the official method to sweetspot the regs is actually by bypassing the LPR by turning it all the way in. This is the method that gives you maximum performance, lowest pressure, and the most consistency. It was the method professed by the original designers of the Matrix in Airtech before the LPR was even added to it. It was also the method professed in the Matrix resource by BonesJackson if you remember. And remember the original Airtech based Matrices, they didn't even have an LPR, they had a plug in the front which allowed maximum air flow, you'd set the output and OP pressure all via the Beehive in-line. LPR's were optional in those early models and only late 2001-2002 models started coming with LPR's standard. That being said, if you dont have a plug to replace the LPR for the tuning process, then yeah, it becomes tricky because not every LPR lets you turn it in all the way, bypassing it, and still be able to cycle the marker.

          So you're backing out the LPR in 1/4 increments in both methods, sorry if I wasnt clear, the only difference being your starting point. In the second method you're starting out with the LPR already regulating the high-pressure coming in from the HPR at some point, and after you set your main pressure via the in-line, you proceed to sweetspot the LPR by backing it out as much as possible to give you the lowest possible OP pressure (which obviously translates to a smoother shot signature.) It's also worth mentioning that any time you mess with either the main pressure/velocity or the dwell, that you're supposed to re-set your LPR. And also, if you decide to try the first method by allowing maximum air-flow, in that method, you need to de-pressurize the HPR and work yourself up, otherwise you're almost guaranteed to blow an inner tophat o-ring, thus complicating your tuning process by a mile.

          Here's one example, even the 2000-2001 private label Airtech-based markers before the Gen-E buyout didn't come with LPR's (i.e. KAPP) Only some models like the Shocktech and Aardvarks did out of the box. Those plugs are handy to sweetspot your regs as per the original, official Airtech method:




          Regarding the dwell, yes, essentially you can theoretically improve efficiency slightly, and alter the ROF, etc, but the stock settings were optimal for all around performance, i.e. lowest operating pressure and high ROF. But yes, there's a reason why the Gun 20 chips were much faster than the Gun 12's, that's because the G20 allowed you to set the forward pulse as low as 10 and the back pulse at 35 which translates to 22.2 BPS whereas the Gun 12 forward pulse was a whopping 35 and back pulse at 25 for a max ROF of 16 BPS. That being said gun 20 chips and everything that was based on it like the Tadao and Egi came with optimal settings out of the box and lowering the dwell by a few ms was a very negligible difference, if any. Especially since the marker was performance oriented with the exception of its efficiency and changing a few MS was not going to make the marker efficient all of the sudden. In order to do that, you had to mod the bolt-kit itself to correct some of the underlying design flaws.

          I'm currently rocking an NYX with the stock Egi board and it's an absolute beast. It has 18 combined MS dwell stock, I can lower it to 16 but the performance remains about the same, but if I lower it more then I start running into issues including slightly higher kick. (Just as an example.) The dwell is already set to its optimal value.

          Kind regards,

          TMG

          Comment


            #9
            Originally posted by the_matrix_guy View Post
            There are differing opinions on how to go about fine tuning the classic Matrix. One method is to 1) turn the LPR all the way in, essentially shutting it off by allowing full pressure to flow through it, then 2) adjusting the HPR until you get 280-290 FPS, then 3) slowly backing out the LPR over a chrono in 1/4 tun increments, until you get the lock bump which is a 10-FPS drop from 290's to 280's, then your regs are essentially sweetspotted. HOWEVER, not every setup allows for you to turn the LPR all the way in and bypass it, and still be able to cycle the gun, so most people just setup the HPR to around 280-290, and then you turn the LPR out as much as possible while shooting to get the lowest possible OP pressure. Just make sure you're able to shoot rapidly without any pressure drop off / air starvation. That method also works well, and you still get a very sweet, smooth shooting Trix

            And of course theres always fine tuning the o-ring and lubricant in the drivetrain/ bolt system itself for lowest possible drag / friction, etc which also allows for the lowest OP pressure. A good lube is recommended, (i.e. Slick Honey) one that doesnt cake or gunk, which is why a thin coating of a high-quality lube is highly recommended

            I hope this helps you. That's a very clean Gen-E, BTW. It's lovely.

            Kind regards,

            TMG
            Hi MG, is Slick Honey originally from the bicycle industry, or am I looking at the wrong product? Is it a silicone or petroleum based product? Cheers!
            '96 RF Mini Cocker, '95 RF Autococker, Trilogy SF Autococker (mech'ed) , 68-Automag Classic, Banzai Splash Minimag, Gen-E Matrix, Shoebox Shocker 4x4, Warp Feed Rainmaker, Montneel Z-1, Tippmann Pro-Carbine, Tippmann Mini-Lite, Tippmann Model-98, Tippmann SL-68II , Tippmann 68-Special, Spyder .50 cal Opus/Opus-A , Liquid CO2 Spyder Victor II , Tippmann .50 Cal Cronus , Gog Enmey .50 cal , Tippmann Vert ASA 68-Carbine

            Meleager7 Feedback: https://www.mcarterbrown.com/forum/b...ager7-feedback

            Comment


            • Tracker

              Tracker

              commented
              Editing a comment
              slick honey is still sold today in bike shops

              it has mineral oil in it, and it will destroy buena o-rings if left to sit for months, but if your strip-cleaning your gun every few weeks like you would be when playing tournaments/practicing a lot (where it originally became popular) then it shouldn't be a big deal.. but there is definitely some "playing with fire" with that stuff

              https://buzzysusa.com/docs/SDS-Slick-Honey-2015.pdf

            #10
            Originally posted by Meleager7 View Post

            Hi MG, is Slick Honey originally from the bicycle industry, or am I looking at the wrong product? Is it a silicone or petroleum based product? Cheers!
            I recall reading that it's from the bike industry, somewhere.

            Unrelated to lube question... how do I know if I have a Gun12 or Gun20 board, and what settings should I use? Going for smooooth shooting.
            And God turned to Gabriel and said: “I shall create a land called Canada of outstanding natural beauty, with majestic mountains soaring with eagles, sparkling lakes abundant with bass and trout, forests full of elk and moose, and rivers stocked with salmon. I shall make the land rich in oil so the inhabitants prosper and call them Canadians, and they shall be praised as the friendliest of all people.”

            “But Lord,” asked Gabriel, “Is this not too generous to these Canadians?”

            And God replied, “Just wait and see the neighbors I shall inflict upon them."

            Comment


              #11
              Originally posted by Meleager7 View Post

              Hi MG, is Slick Honey originally from the bicycle industry, or am I looking at the wrong product? Is it a silicone or petroleum based product? Cheers!
              Honey Slick is awesome. So yeah it is actually a lubricant for bicycles but don’t let that turn you off. It’s been a staple of spoolie guys since the early 2000’s as well as industry insiders. I was turned into it by John, owner of Compulsive Paintball, he was big into spool based markers i.e. the Shocker and Matrix, but he used it in everything including Cockers. It’s simply the best. A little goes a long way, it doesn’t gunk, never cakes. Minimum resistance, maximum sealant against urethane. You gotta consider, the enthusiast bike world is a much bigger market than PB. Whether it’s road racing, cyclocross, or mountain biking— it’s even more expensive than PB and it’s a much bigger market. $1,500-2000 is barely entry level. So a lot more dollars go into development of products. Ironically… Slick Honey outperforms PB lubes. Especially when it comes to high-performance spool-valve drivetrain bolt systems.

              Comment


                #12
                Originally posted by Jordan View Post

                I recall reading that it's from the bike industry, somewhere.

                Unrelated to lube question... how do I know if I have a Gun12 or Gun20 board, and what settings should I use? Going for smooooth shooting.
                Usually the led chips have a sticker on em. If for some reason it doesn't have a sticker then you should be able to tell by either the settings or by how the marker performs., The Gun12 are absolutely 100% capped at around 16 bps. All LCD boards are Gun 20 (22.2 BPS) based but they are not all eyes/ACE compatible, only the ones with the yellow stickers.

                Comment


                • Jordan

                  Jordan

                  commented
                  Editing a comment
                  No sticker, but it looks like a Gun12/20 board.

                #13
                Jordan Ok, check your dip switches. And make sure they're all down. That's the setting for MAX ROF. Then you should be able to tell by how the gun shoots. The Gun 12 is definitely, noticeably slower. The Gun 20's absolutely rip. The Gun 12 has more of a pop-pop-pop shot signature whereas the Gun 20 feels like a low-thumping machine gun, if you will. (Best way I can describe it). Also, the Gun 20 chips were also sold as a standalone performance upgrade, so you can't really tell by the board itself, since many folks upgraded. I was able to find a physical Gen-E manual with all of the settings although they're the same as the ones in the DYE Matrix manual posted up in the DYE subforum.








                Meleager7


                I always keep some around:

                Comment


                  #14
                  I used slick honey but I wouldn't anymore. I would reccomend dow33 and if you want it lighter, mix with some synthetic air tool oil or synthetic paintball oil or something.

                  Slick honey just so damn stinky, sticky, and petroleum smelling.

                  But yeah they are really easy to adjust.

                  Comment


                    #15
                    Yeah, I choose to stay away from petroleum-based greases like Slick Honey. No thank you. There are too many excellent silicone-based greases out there (Lurker, new Dye, MacDev Militia, even the new IA grease) to settle for petroleum-based.

                    Comment

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