Springing for Liquid Co2 use?

[Meleager7]

If i wanted to experiment (wait, i do! ) with running different blowback guns on liquid co2 , what would be the appropriate springing?

Is it stiff valve spring, weaker mainspring?

Or weaker valve spring, with a stiffer stronger main spring?

In other words, how were my montneel z1 and tippy 68-special sprung from the factory?

[Chappy]

Think of it as a volume system, not a pressure system. So you want to meter the amount of liquid that can expand from the valve. You don't want pressure fluctuations to affect how much the valve can open, so in general a stiffer spring in the valve will help accomplish this in my experience.
Too stiff and youll need a hefty mainspring to overcome and the trigger pull will suffer, as well as the added wear of the gun beating itself up. But too light and you will lose conisitency. As with all things, seek balance

[Nish]

Grand Master General Chappy has spoken.

Seriously though. Chappy and HP Lovecraft are probably the best guys to talk to about this.

[Hp_lovecraft]

It feels like a lost art, and has for many years. Just trying to get a siphon filled at fields today is a whole experience in itself, not to mention tryng to chrono.

But sure, any non-regulated gun, you can throw on a siphon and it should function. FPS will be 50-100fps higher, and effeciency will be terrible. For all the reasons Chappy said. You can cut your spring, but the real solution is to try make the valve space as small as possible. Thats the trick to making the effeciency usable. (for the record, earlly vectors, and typhoons could also run a siphon)

Beyond that, you might have other issues. Tippmann famously ended support for siphons with the Model-98. You could order an M98 with option siphon, but NOT the 98-custom. The 98C switched to a cheaper manafacturing process, including cheap plastics that would crack from all thermal cycling, especially the bolt. They felt that siphons were a liability issue with so many electro=pneumatics on the market that would easily get damanged with a tank mix up. I thought it might damage macroline, but I tested one of my megazs on macroline, and it seemed to work fine, no leaks. A little creepy seeing the liquid in the hose though.

So theres that. I think its all worth it. A good liquid setup gets you better performance then HPA, without the cost or maintenance or headaches. And like I said, its a "dark art". Players today will accuse you of witchcraft, and sleeping with ducks. IF you are not worried about effeciency, just cut a spring until you get the FPS down to where you want it.

[Meleager7]

It feels like a lost art, and has for many years. Just trying to get a siphon filled at fields today is a whole experience in itself, not to mention tryng to chrono.

But sure, any non-regulated gun, you can throw on a siphon and it should function. FPS will be 50-100fps higher, and effeciency will be terrible. For all the reasons Chappy said. You can cut your spring, but the real solution is to try make the valve space as small as possible. Thats the trick to making the effeciency usable. (for the record, earlly vectors, and typhoons could also run a siphon)

Beyond that, you might have other issues. Tippmann famously ended support for siphons with the Model-98. You could order an M98 with option siphon, but NOT the 98-custom. The 98C switched to a cheaper manafacturing process, including cheap plastics that would crack from all thermal cycling, especially the bolt. They felt that siphons were a liability issue with so many electro=pneumatics on the market that would easily get damanged with a tank mix up. I thought it might damage macroline, but I tested one of my megazs on macroline, and it seemed to work fine, no leaks. A little creepy seeing the liquid in the hose though.

So theres that. I think its all worth it. A good liquid setup gets you better performance then HPA, without the cost or maintenance or headaches. And like I said, its a "dark art". Players today will accuse you of witchcraft, and sleeping with ducks. IF you are not worried about effeciency, just cut a spring until you get the FPS down to where you want it.

I hear you about the challenge to get fields who will still fill co2! I had my montneel out this past Sat, and had to bring co2 with me. Luckily I have found a local store who will do fills for a fair price, so now I have a 20 siphon being built for me

Chronoing went well at the game, I took a couple shots to charge the valve, and the ref clocked 280, 280, said Wow, you’re good!

if i’m thinking of messing around with a Spyder on liquid, would it be the volume in the front of the Spyder body, in front of the cup seal I should be focusing on reducing?

[Meleager7]

Think of it as a volume system, not a pressure system.

Your explanation got me thinking. Can you imagine if HPA had never replaced co2 , but the spool valve design for paintball guns still appeared? Then imagine a liquid co2 Ion design, with urethane orings throughout, and the tiny volumes in the firing can , and also holding the ion bolt back !

[Cunha]

Any of the guns that don't have an LPR could conceivably be designed to have no HPR also, and to run on liquid c02 maybe.

Oh that would be mega cool.

All the pro's showing up with co2 tanks to fill their own liquid co2 bottles just like in the 90's and 00's the pros would show up with stacks of scuba tanks to the co2 fills only field.

[Hp_lovecraft]

The inherent problem with the liquid co2 is you can not regulate it down. So if you get liquid past your regs, then it flash boils, causing a pressure spike. In the old days, guns like Vectors and Typhoons had liquid relief valves specifically to vent this pressure, so it was safe to run the liquid. But by the mid 90s, companies stopped making vented regs (ie the mini-rock is a rock without the vent).

But you can design a system strong enough to handle the liquid. Lots of the battlebots used liquid co2 powered rams. It was simplier and easier then using hpa-based systems and you could get much more energy delivered using a smaller amount of space. The most famous example being "Toro" build by Alexander Rose.... who also played pro paintball aka "Zander"

[Meleager7]

Zander Rose must have had a Tippmann 68-Special !

[ATBen]

Is it true that CO2 is a denser has and that's why it can fill chambers faster than air?

[Cunha]

It’s a liquid so it is denser.

battlebots I wonder if the current ones run basically unregged or barely regged HPA like the pellet guns do now.

so a ram at 4000psi instead of 800psi with diminishing power or whatever.

[Jordan]

Is it true that CO2 is a denser has and that's why it can fill chambers faster than air?

I think it's the expansion rate, not necessarily the density, that Co2 has.

[ATBen]

I thought I'd heard something like that. There was an old video with Glenn Palmer where he said something about how the early hurricanes did better on CO2 because of the expansion rate.