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First Pump - Velocity, valves/springs/hammers

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    First Pump - Velocity, valves/springs/hammers


    So I've recently converted my 2k4 prostock to a pump and was gifted what I believe is a CCM aluminum valve/spring (based on the AC ID page) and using a stock hammer.

    HPR set around 300-320 PSI
    No matter what Inception main spring I toss in, or how far I turn in the IVG, virtually no air is getting out of the valve (the ball just poo's out the end of the barrel, and yes the bolt is in correctly). That being said, using a stiff FF mainspring seems to cause the valve to stick open when holding the pump forward after cocking/firing.
    Conversely, toss in a WGP valve with a set of matched FF springs, 285 FPS all day.

    I feel like I'm missing something overly simple here, but why cant I get the CCM valve to work properly?
    Feedback πŸ”«πŸ”«
    Regular scrub at Matt's Outback.

    Dumpster Fire PB

    #2
    If it is a CCM valve, stem, and spring then the balance could all be off. CCM's valve and spring are best suited for the CCM hammer/spring.

    Have you tried to zero out the reg, turn IVG in 2 turns then sweet spot from there?
    Feedback 3.0

    Comment


      #3
      Order yourself some springs from CCM.
      ChuckLove on YouTube

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by iamthelazerviking View Post
        If it is a CCM valve, stem, and spring then the balance could all be off. CCM's valve and spring are best suited for the CCM hammer/spring.

        Have you tried to zero out the reg, turn IVG in 2 turns then sweet spot from there?
        What's so different about the CCM hammer vs a stock? How about his springs vs ID's? Probably rhetorical, but I'm assuming it's because they're matched.

        I've heard that CCM is the go-to for pumps, so I'll nab the rest of the lower tube if it makes sense.
        Feedback πŸ”«πŸ”«
        Regular scrub at Matt's Outback.

        Dumpster Fire PB

        Comment


        • iamthelazerviking
          iamthelazerviking commented
          Editing a comment
          They are usually out of stock on everything, but if you contact them directly they might have items that show out of stock or not even listed on the site.

          CCM hammers are longer and also heavier. They designed their lower tube/springs to be very light as well as balanced. ID springs I know come in a kit with different tensions, where as CCM is just the one hammer and valve spring.

        #5
        CCM springs are perfectly balanced for pump play. I would just get some springs for the valve you already have.

        Make sure you put the Grip frame screws back the right way. Long in the front short to the back. Reverse it and you will have all kinds of erratic behavior.

        But even the WGP valve will work great with the CCM springs.

        Comment


          #6
          Originally posted by goofyman23 View Post

          What's so different about the CCM hammer vs a stock? How about his springs vs ID's? Probably rhetorical, but I'm assuming it's because they're matched.

          I've heard that CCM is the go-to for pumps, so I'll nab the rest of the lower tube if it makes sense.
          The CCM hammer is much longer than the stock one and also in being longer (behind the hammer lug) preloads the spring more so that it can get a higher effective spring rate out of a lighter spring. Kind of like running a really light spring and cranking the IVG down. The added weight of the hammer also increases momentum which holds the valve open longer.

          Yes, hammers do make a big difference in my opinion but not on their own. The CCM setup is pretty carefully set up as a system so you should get all the parts including the hammer and springs. On the other hand the CCM lower tube parts aren't magic. The WGP internals work fine and are very efficient. CCM is mainly geared towards having the lightest springs possible.

          Comment


          • goofyman23
            goofyman23 commented
            Editing a comment
            Awesome info, thanks gabe!

          • Chuck E Ducky

            Chuck E Ducky

            commented
            Editing a comment
            However the difference is nothing the IVG can’t handle with adjustment. The difference in length is very small. You can get 90% of the CCM feel with just a good balanced spring swap. Is it better with the full lowers yup. But if you can’t get the full lowers the springs they use will get you close super cheap. There is nothing special about them you could send them out to get tested and buy them anywhere once you know there rates and length.

          • gabe
            gabe commented
            Editing a comment
            The difference isn't necessarily all that small. I have a stock WGP hammer here and the difference in length to the spring perch is about .080" which isn't all the much. On the other hand if I compare it to a Check-it or an AKA hammer both of which I have here the difference is almost 3/16" which is pretty considerable.

          #7
          Originally posted by goofyman23 View Post
          virtually no air is getting out of the valve (the ball just poo's out the end of the barrel, and yes the bolt is in correctly).
          Not sure if it is relevent on a ccm valve but have you check if the valve hole is correctly pointing up and not down?
          some valve are drilled only on one side
          its strange that no air is comming out

          Comment


          • goofyman23
            goofyman23 commented
            Editing a comment
            Yep, definitely facing the correct way. I agree, it makes little sense.

          #8
          Finally got myself a CCM hammer and spring to match the valve. We're better, but still cannot get velocity dialed in. With my HPR at ~320 output and IVG ~2 turns in, I'm getting a whopping 150-160FPS. I'm underboring the paint (.679) as best I can, too.

          I feel like I'm missing something fundamentally wrong here.
          Feedback πŸ”«πŸ”«
          Regular scrub at Matt's Outback.

          Dumpster Fire PB

          Comment


            #10
            Originally posted by Jordan View Post
            Have you sweetspotted the reg, or just decided on 320psi arbitrarily?
            I was going to ask this as well. I think you just need to up your input pressure a bit. If you're seeing velocity issues most of the time you need higher HPR pressure or a heavier main spring.
            πŸ’€ PK x Ragnastock πŸ’€

            Comment


            • Shaftski
              Shaftski commented
              Editing a comment
              Or the pressure is too high causing the valve to close prematurely. Hit this issue on my green cocker w/stock valve after I resprung everything. At 300 PSI i could not break 150fps, dropped to 250 psi and voila right up to 240fps w/ IVG backed out.

            • Jonnydread

              Jonnydread

              commented
              Editing a comment
              Shaftski That's entirely possible, but in my experience most cockers are happier >300psi.

            • Grendel

              Grendel

              commented
              Editing a comment
              yup and if they leave everything alone and sweet spot the reg. [regardless of actual velocity] they will know if they have too high a pressure. The most important thing is to get a good reliable source of air, then work out the spring balance between valve, hammer and IVG. I never relay upon the source of my springs to be correct. Hell I have a tackle box full of different size (length, diameter, and thickness) that I use when setting up a marker. I use which ever ones give me the best setup. I measure my own spring rates and size my springs for each marker. I do not believe there is a right standard for any of the markers out there there is just too much variability. CCM kits have good for a CCM build but mix and match other stuff and they may not work perfectly.

              https://kbdelta.com/blog/spring-rate...20the%20spring.

              Spring rate, also known as spring constant, is the constant amount of force it takes a compression or extension spring to travel a proportionate amount of distance. The unit of measurement of rate is, lbf/in, which stands for pounds of force per inch.

            #11
            Originally posted by Jordan View Post
            Have you sweetspotted the reg, or just decided on 320psi arbitrarily?
            Should've been clearer; 320 was the starting point however after trying to sweet spot it, the max I can get is 250fps without the valve pissing out air when the pump is held forward.

            At this point, I've given up all hope with this thing. Never got it working properly as an autococker and clearly too dumb to get it to work as a pump. I'll probably send it off to Doc or Cockertop at this point and save myself the headache. I understand the principals on paper, but can never get it to translate to real life results.
            Feedback πŸ”«πŸ”«
            Regular scrub at Matt's Outback.

            Dumpster Fire PB

            Comment


            • Grendel

              Grendel

              commented
              Editing a comment
              That is not how you sweet spot a Regulator.

              1. Turn your IVG all the way out. Then turn it back in two turns in (most players) I personally like to set my IVG to the middle of the IVG adjustment your choice and leave it alone.

              2. Turn your regulator adjustor out as far out as possible (lowest Pressure)

              3. Shoot marker over the chrono and note velocity (it does not matter if it is usable or not at this point)

              4. Slowly turn the reg pressure up a quarter turn then take two or three shots, make note of your average velocity [velocity should be going up]

              5. When the velocity starts to go down then turn the reg back 1/8 turn or so and now your reg is fairly well sweet spotted.

              6. Now that done you are at your highest velocity (should be the highest average so far)

              7. Now decide if your final velocity needs to go up or down for your desired range. This is when you start messing with the IVG if only a small change is needed. If a larger change is needed return the IVG to the sweet spotting position and this is when you start working with springs.

            • goofyman23
              goofyman23 commented
              Editing a comment
              While I didnt follow the sweetspotting definition to the T, I did use the same methodology by increasing the pressure until the bell curve starts to fall off. However, I never got to that point. Instead the valve would piss air once I reached (what I assume) is too high of a pressure despite not acheiving ~280fps.

              I cycled about 5 or so shots after each turn of the reg. When I finally got to about 250fps, I turned the IVG in about a full turn to and make up *some* form of FPS however the valve started pissing air again (I'm guessing too much main spring pressure at this point).

              I just got off the phone with DocFire and have decided to leverage his services at this point. Appreciate your and everyone's assistance!

            #12
            At this point you seem to have try a lot of stuff to make it work
            You said in the first post that with a stock valve everything work fine. Maybe your valve is the issue.

            If you can provide a picture of the valve so we can check it or personally I would just use a stock valve, light or medium stiffness valve spring, tune pressure and hammer spring from there and go play

            Comment

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