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A tiny 6/4500 hpa cylinder?

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    A tiny 6/4500 hpa cylinder?

    Anyone know what the heck to make of this?

    Click image for larger version  Name:	173C8D4D-18E8-452D-B9A9-1BEC742AA08E.jpeg Views:	0 Size:	354.9 KB ID:	341464

    They seem to be manufactured by some company overseas, almost everything is misspelled on the website. Now of course the phrase “More Safer” definitely puts one’s mind at ease when followed by “4500psi,” but...is the core concept sound here? I guess I cant think of any reason it wouldn’t be?

    Basically what you’re looking at is *allegedly* a titanium alloy 7.8”x.8” (if you had the 20cm version) cylinder, that holds .1L, so a little over 6ci, and can *allegedly* be safely filled to 4500psi. So what, we’re talking like 90 shots or so out of something like this?

    I mean, would that not be a game changer?

    The sketchiness of that site is more than enough for me to not buy one, but perhaps some reputable manufacturer could make something like this one day? Or has this ever been done? It’s all news to me.

    Gotta say I’m tempted to buy one not to actually even try it, but just to examine the build quality. But I fear that would inevitably lead to me eventually trying to fill it, and there’s probably a nonzero chance I could end up with one of those endcaps embedded in my skull, so nah.
    Last edited by procarbie; 11-30-2022, 02:57 AM.

    #2
    Unless it's got a DOT stamp, you can't fill it.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Lotus View Post
      Unless it's got a DOT stamp, you can't fill it.
      I think you could fill one of these in like 3 minutes with one of those sketchy hpa pumps that are also made overseas lol. Not saying you should.

      Edit:

      I think we’re all pretty smart people here but this just feels like a good time to go ahead and say NOBODY SHOULD EVER ATTEMPT THIS


      Edit Edit:

      Removed the link to the site. Not because I think anyone would actually try to do it, but because the site does seem rather sketch and we don’t need the link there to discuss whatever the heck this is.
      Last edited by procarbie; 11-30-2022, 03:00 AM.

      Comment


        #4
        Those are basically unregistered, DIY suppressor cans. Be very careful buying.

        Doc.
        Doc's Machine & Airsmith Services: Creating the Strange and Wonderful since 1998!
        The Whiteboard: Daily, occasionally paintball-related webcomic mayhem!
        Paintball in the Movies!

        Comment


        • Mr. Hick

          Mr. Hick

          commented
          Editing a comment
          This was my immediate thought. "boy, that looks like an ATF bait site..."

        • Chuck E Ducky

          Chuck E Ducky

          commented
          Editing a comment
          Yup buy that the atf boogie man will shoot your dog.

        #5
        Ecap has one of those reg testers that are a lil bigger than a bucket changer. Probably only get a few shots off it tho. I forgot who made it powerhouse I think.

        yup probably only good for 10-20 shots

        Comment


          #6
          If someone buy one, at least get it hydro tested before using it to make sure your specific tank is safe to use up to a specific pressure.

          Comment


            #7
            these are routinely used on PCP airguns.

            you don't fill directly from a commercial compressor at a field, store, etc. use a hand pump, scuba, or your own compressor to fill to desired operating pressure, most won't set their pressure higher than 3k, i won't.

            aren't designed to be removed, basically air chambers that screw into the valve body directly. regulators built into the gun valve.

            lots of overseas junk out there, but there are also machinists making rock solid safe and reliable "safepaks" as they are called. Google "PCP airgun" and you'll see what I'm talking about.

            when buying something that looks like a supressor, i only buy it from airgun dealers and order pellets with it since total legit to silence an airgun so ATF can eff off.

            Comment


              #8
              Originally posted by Shaftski View Post
              these are routinely used on PCP airguns.

              you don't fill directly from a commercial compressor at a field, store, etc. use a hand pump, scuba, or your own compressor to fill to desired operating pressure, most won't set their pressure higher than 3k, i won't.

              aren't designed to be removed, basically air chambers that screw into the valve body directly. regulators built into the gun valve.

              lots of overseas junk out there, but there are also machinists making rock solid safe and reliable "safepaks" as they are called. Google "PCP airgun" and you'll see what I'm talking about.

              when buying something that looks like a supressor, i only buy it from airgun dealers and order pellets with it since total legit to silence an airgun so ATF can eff off.
              Had a feeling there’d be someone who knew exactly what was up with these. Thanks for the insight.

              An internally-aired marker with a non-removable hpa tank would be an interesting concept, if for no other reason than to see how clever the manufacturers could get with disguising the tank into a sleek design. Kinda like those stocks they have that go over 13/3000’s, but more...internal haha. Sounds like something that’s prob been tried before.

              I’m sure it would be a pain in the ass in practice, but the mental image of a bunch of people waiting in the fill line to plug in their entire markers is kind of funny to me.

              Comment


                #9
                I looked into PCP rifles for a while, and the commonly have a forearm tank. Pretty slick.

                Not sure how reasonable it would be for a full length game with anything but FSR, but maybe with a Ninja PCP-regged remote tank it could be fun. Carry a 45/4500 in a pack, with a whip to charge the gun on the field.
                Feedback: https://www.mcarterbrown.com/forum/b...eedback-thread
                Nelspot/CCI Sears and Triggers
                Action Markers Valves

                Comment


                  #10
                  I have been wondering why the PCP tech has not hit the Paintball market yet. I have two with internal tanks.
                  Old school brass........

                  Comment


                  • Ecapnation

                    Ecapnation

                    commented
                    Editing a comment
                    It did.....40 years ago.

                    Look up "Splatoon"

                  • Brokeass_baller

                    Brokeass_baller

                    commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Unfortunately, that's not an easy Google search these days. All I get are video game results.

                  #11
                  wouldn't buy us much in paintball. we need too high an air volume to move our .68ish caliber water balloons. tanks need to be big.

                  if we were to try to hit a modern paintball with anything more than 850 psi i'm not cleaning up that mess. slamming the back end of a .50 caliber lead slug you need the extra pressure to get any kind of range.

                  i'm looking at pcp conversion on a crosman 2240 i'm butchering right now lol. Even if I put a beautifully machined aluminum chamber on it for close to 100 bucks i'll only get 7 shots per charge. and that's with about 15 gr .22 lead rounds. a high pressure fill line from a unregged remote bottle is probably my better/cheaper option for bench shooting. or hell even straight from my scuba.

                  Comment


                    #12
                    Originally posted by Shaftski View Post
                    wouldn't buy us much in paintball. we need too high an air volume to move our .68ish caliber water balloons. tanks need to be big.

                    if we were to try to hit a modern paintball with anything more than 850 psi i'm not cleaning up that mess. slamming the back end of a .50 caliber lead slug you need the extra pressure to get any kind of range.

                    i'm looking at pcp conversion on a crosman 2240 i'm butchering right now lol. Even if I put a beautifully machined aluminum chamber on it for close to 100 bucks i'll only get 7 shots per charge. and that's with about 15 gr .22 lead rounds. a high pressure fill line from a unregged remote bottle is probably my better/cheaper option for bench shooting. or hell even straight from my scuba.
                    You’d put a regulator on a tank like this for any sort of projectile shooting application (unless you fancy your paintball gun turning into a real live grenade!) and match the output pressure to whatever your marker is set up for/what you yourself have set the marker up for. For example, my Emek is allegedly supposed to be able to go as low as 135psi, though I have my doubts. Generally with any modern non-CO2 marker the ideal operating pressure is going to be less than 850psi, some by orders of magnitude. So that 4500psi number for the tank pressure will get divided into the output pressure of your marker, and the ultimate level of shots you’d get would be based on that plus the volume of the tank. They don’t make a paintball gun capable of operating at 3000, let alone 4500psi, people would die lol.

                    On a “normal” marker (I honestly forget what the operating pressure is assumed to be for this rule of thumb equation), the rough estimate is 10-12 shots per cubic inch on a 3000psi tank, and 15-17 shots per cubic inch on a 4500psi tank (though there’s obv lots of variables at play here).

                    So on a 6 cubic inch tank like the one in the picture (and 6ci is well below the smallest typically commercially available hpa tanks, the smallest ones easily found are generally 9ci), you could make the rough estimate that you’d get about 90 or so shots.

                    Hope that helps! It took me quite a while to wrap my head around it personally.

                    Comment


                    • Shaftski
                      Shaftski commented
                      Editing a comment
                      the shot math is nothing new. if someone wants to invest time or effort into it go for it. the cost per shot is going to discourage most except those that have to do it for the sake of doing it. i mean you can get a 13/3k with all the safety measures built into the design, regulated to 850 or lower if you want, and is rebuildable for 60 bucks. don't let ebay prices fool you into thinking this is a cheap alternative, it's not due to new filling equipment needed, etc. a lot of those ebay designs are ticking time bombs that haven't been fully tested to 3x their operating pressure for an appropriate safety factor.

                      only reason pcp shooters bother with any of the expense is the performance at higher operating pressures.

                    • procarbie
                      procarbie commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Sorry for the misunderstanding my guy, tbh it was mostly just the comments about how paintball tanks “need to be big” due to the air volume needed to move a paintball (though the barrels and ammunition of a paintball marker are obviously much larger than that of your crossman, even the least efficient marker with a regulated hpa tank uses such a drastically lesser volume of air per typical shot, that there’s really no comparison between the two—put simply, that external regulation plus the lower operating pressures inherent to the design and purpose of paintball markers are what make them able to utilize hpa more efficiently by orders of magnitude than things like airguns, which in the case of yours operates between three to five times the internal pressure and needs a non or drastically less regulated hpa tank (which of course is also by design/purpose as a crossman 2240 is most certainly made for purposes other than shooting at your friends for fun), and the one about “if we were to try to hit a modern paintball with anything more than 850 psi” that just made it seem like you were possibly a little confused as to the way we were discussing using the tank in my original post. And hey nothing wrong with that, personally it took me a long time to wrap my head around the basic concepts of hpa applications in paintball, and that’s really all I know—there are people on here who have forgotten more on the subject than I’ll grasp in my life.

                      But uh...regarding your most recent post, about shots per tank being lower and that discouraging people except for those who are doing things for the sake of it/the implication that smaller tanks aren’t worthwhile in paintball because of it—

                      I REALLY don’t want to come across as an ass when I say this, but you do know the particular subset of paintball and paintball markers that this community is known for...right?
                      Last edited by procarbie; 12-01-2022, 01:12 AM.

                    #13
                    Originally posted by Shaftski View Post
                    these are routinely used on PCP airguns.
                    -That's just crazy enough to work.

                    That hadn't even occurred to me- and I had a Webley & Scott PCP for a while. Built-in air chamber, good to 3K PSI, wickedly accurate. Oddly enough, never crossed my mind that people would be building custom rifles, but of course that must be the case.

                    In my defense, there were, in fact, several companies selling complete, kit, or "80%" suppressors, all made in China, on eBay. Supposedly many thousands were sold, and the ATF jumped on a bunch of importers. Who were listing them as "fuel filters" and the like- even given them bogus WIX or Fram part numbers. (But what engine uses 1/2"-28 threads, the same as an AR-15 flash hider. )

                    Doc.
                    Doc's Machine & Airsmith Services: Creating the Strange and Wonderful since 1998!
                    The Whiteboard: Daily, occasionally paintball-related webcomic mayhem!
                    Paintball in the Movies!

                    Comment


                    • Brokeass_baller

                      Brokeass_baller

                      commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Ah yes, "solvent traps".

                    • Shaftski
                      Shaftski commented
                      Editing a comment
                      the common euphemism now is "lead dust collector" or LDC lol

                    #14
                    Originally posted by DocsMachine View Post

                    -That's just crazy enough to work.

                    That hadn't even occurred to me- and I had a Webley & Scott PCP for a while. Built-in air chamber, good to 3K PSI, wickedly accurate. Oddly enough, never crossed my mind that people would be building custom rifles, but of course that must be the case.

                    In my defense, there were, in fact, several companies selling complete, kit, or "80%" suppressors, all made in China, on eBay. Supposedly many thousands were sold, and the ATF jumped on a bunch of importers. Who were listing them as "fuel filters" and the like- even given them bogus WIX or Fram part numbers. (But what engine uses 1/2"-28 threads, the same as an AR-15 flash hider. )

                    Doc.
                    I vaguely remember seeing videos many years ago from this company that marketed a .22 adapter connected to a bright blue oil filter (iirc they sold them together as one unit), that you actually had to shoot through the first time. The thinking was that after you had punctured the metal outer wall it would suppress the follow-up shots, though I also remember they conspicuously refused to address the question of how long that would even work for before the inside of that oil filter was shredded mush.

                    In the shooting demos they were so smug about having created such a clever legal workaround that nobody had thought of and that they couldn’t legally be prevented from doing...until the ATF said to hell with that and came down on them with a fury that made it clear the boys in blue windbreakers had taken it personally.

                    iirc some sentences may have even been handed out? I’m not sure.

                    What was made absolutely clear though was that this clever lifehack (the ATF hates him!) was just the latest novel and exciting way to get a free masters in license plate stamping.
                    Last edited by procarbie; 12-01-2022, 03:41 AM.

                    Comment


                      #15
                      Heh. Years ago, I happened across an old issue of Soldier of Fortune magazine, probably from the 70s. In it was an article about a company that had- briefly- manufactured an adapter (I think plastic) that screwed to the barrel collar of a MAC-10, to which you could then screw a 2-liter soda bottle.

                      Again, keep in mind this was the 70s, possibly early 80s. If you saw the "soda bottle" thing in a movie or TV show, the idea's been around way longer than that.

                      Anyway, the company thought- not unreasonably- that they weren't making a "silencer", it's just a threaded adapter. Nope. The ATF shut them down right away- parts of a silencer are just as bad as making the whole thing.

                      Some of those imported Chinese "kits" often came undrilled- it was just a can with two solid endcaps and a baffle stack inside. The idea there was like the "80%" receivers- it's not the "real thing" until it's finished- in this case meaning the endcaps were drilled.

                      I seem to recall seeing some listings for ones where even the baffles weren't drilled.

                      But nope, that didn't fly either. I'm not sure the ATF outright prosecuted anyone- at least, individual buyers- but I'm given to understand they came down pretty hard on the retailers and importers.

                      Oh, and that oil filter? That's a legit "can". You buy and pay the fee for the adapter- just a machined collar, really. As long as you pay the tax stamp and register it, it's legal. (You supposedly have to send it back to the factory to have them swap the adapter over to a new filter- otherwise you're illegally "manufacturing".)

                      Doc.
                      Doc's Machine & Airsmith Services: Creating the Strange and Wonderful since 1998!
                      The Whiteboard: Daily, occasionally paintball-related webcomic mayhem!
                      Paintball in the Movies!

                      Comment

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