FASOR Mechs?

[ChoSanJuan]

Is there a such thing? Since I've been working on these Mech Ions, I've been thinking of where else I can jam some SMAVs. (Phrasing?) Let's take, for instance, the EM1... It's only forward striker action at about 90-100 psi from the LPR. Other than proper plumbing, really the removal of the solenoid should work similar to how the Ion is setup to drive the striker/bolt forward then rely on the return spring to reset back to one. This should let the SMAV 3 vent after releasing the trigger on the same way, too. Right?

[Jordan]

Other than switching hose placement (compared to how an Ion is plumbed) it should work.

[the_hyren]

Wait are not still doing that? -Archer

There is no easy way. Issue is that it would take very low pressure to not hold the valve open. As such your velocity is controlled by how long you are on the trigger. Meaning it would shoot somewhere between not at all and 500fps. To fix this you have to make a pulse valve which requires a ton of stuff that is almost impossible to jam into most grip frames. The best way to make a mech fasor would be to rig a sear dropping marker with a custom ivg and hammer arrangement. In a cocker for instance you make an ivg/hammer that is air tight and tie a valve to the trigger. The valve shuts off lpr air to the back of the new hammer before the sear drop releases it and then half way through the hammer motion it vents through the lug slot in the bottom of the body. The ram moves the bolt and resets the hammer like normal. And when fully released the new valve fills the rear of the hammer again. So ultimately you only need to mount 1 valve, run extra lpr hose into the frame, mill a hammer for an oring, and make an ivg that seals the grip frame screw holes and around the cocking rod.

I think someone recreated my original post on how to mech anything and create a pulse valve. The original was lost to the MCB crash last year. I believe one exist on pbn too though it didn't have much participation from others.

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[MrKittyCatMeowFace]

Would love to see this done. I love single trigger angels and shockers. Be cool to have it mech, better than it being electric .

[jerryjjackson69]

All of the mech air-ram setups I've seen have the drawback of sounding terrible as the ram is inconsistently dwelled but almost always over-dwelled, so the ram always bounces a bunch on the valve and sounds worse than a burp of the worst Nelson or Sniper. They aren't tough to make, but I don't think anyone has built a great one yet. The mass and pressure behind your ram and your valve pressure determine velocity. If you hold the trigger you don't get more velocity unless your baseline was short stroking, which is another issue if you are trying to walk it. A pulse valve is a possibility. I think having a set volume of air for the ram every shot with a shut-off, as well as a vent when the ram is all the way forward would work. The ram would still open the valve with momentum, like all (most?) striker/ram poppet markers, but blowback might become an issue.

[the_hyren]

Would love to see this done. I love single trigger angels and shockers. Be cool to have it mech, better than it being electric .

Angels are a more difficult endeavor. The smc parts needed to do it are about $250 as it is. Then you need to remove the coil section of the solenoid and have someone make a new section that uses an m3 90 degree barb. You need to tap into the lpr somehow as well. In sensi models the best way would be make a custom block off plate that can take a 90degree barb.

The more ideal candidates are timmys and icd promasters since the bodies already have hose barbs.

Sft are viable with some work since you can get bar stock in the same dimensions as the stock manifold. I think 1/2" wide and 1/8" thick but measure first. This means the only tool you need is a drill press. Remove the noid and replace the orings on the solenoid side of the stock manifold with square profile rings. 2mm id x 1mm cs if I recall. Then polish the bar stock, drill and tap it for m3 barbs and get some screws to hold it to the stock manifold. You can not use the center air feed due to the m3 barb size. The m3 tap will also make the holes slightly larger than the apex of the stock round orings but the square profile do seal if you do a good job of centering your drills. You will have to get someone to mill the frame a little. The new adapter you made will not fit down in the frame. But any decent machinist with a hand mill can do it quick and dirty for you in about 5 minutes. The next step was to get air into the frame. I removed my gauge and rotated my vasa for the port to face forwards. Add a cocker lpr here and set for 120 psi. Remove the eye and eye cover and replace the detent with a non-eye side one. Run hose from the lpr down the eye hole into the frame. Im currently here. The next phase is to cut sheet steel to go under the grips so that I can fasten down all the valves that are going in the frame.

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[the_hyren]

All of the mech air-ram setups I've seen have the drawback of sounding terrible as the ram is inconsistently dwelled but almost always over-dwelled, so the ram always bounces a bunch on the valve and sounds worse than a burp of the worst Nelson or Sniper. They aren't tough to make, but I don't think anyone has built a great one yet. The mass and pressure behind your ram and your valve pressure determine velocity. If you hold the trigger you don't get more velocity unless your baseline was short stroking, which is another issue if you are trying to walk it. A pulse valve is a possibility. I think having a set volume of air for the ram every shot with a shut-off, as well as a vent when the ram is all the way forward would work. The ram would still open the valve with momentum, like all (most?) striker/ram poppet markers, but blowback might become an issue.

Right on the money. The only way to make something that will chrono at a field is to use a pulse valve. All the commercial ones are huge and slow. Usually the size of an aka 2liter and good for maybe 5 cycles a second. But a pulse valve is simple to implement. It is just a normally open 3way that leaks into its own pilot. Thus they can be emulated with a 3 way and a 1way flow controller. The flow controller gives you adjustable leak rate which is essentially your dwell adjustment. The limit switch tied to your trigger tees into the flow controller and the 3way P port. The A port of the 3 way goes to a 5way the controls the bolt or in a fasor design the ram directly. The pilot is fed by the flow controller.

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[the_hyren]

The mass and pressure behind your ram and your valve pressure determine velocity. If you hold the trigger you don't get more velocity unless your baseline was short stroking, which is another issue if you are trying to walk it.

When I initially started tinkering I tried a simple 5way and limit switch, no pulse valve. 2k5 timmy fyi. The issue was that I could not achieve reasonable field legal velocity. I found that running the hpr pressure less than 300psi was not possible as the ram would not even bounce the valve but outright hold it open. This yielded mid 400fps with most any shot I didn't short stroke. At 300psi I had still could not really achieve field legal velocities and it was grossly inconsistent.

The original design I saw on youtube ran the lpr straight to a qev to the front of the ram and only switched the rear. This made a very slow starting movement as the pressure had to build in front until the qev gave out and vented. This was A, a big waste of air and B, made the bolt motion hella slow for the first 1/2 of its throw. Ultimately it wasn't really capable of more than 8 to 10 bps.

This all led to my discovery of the clippard pulse valve which I dissected and realized it was just a self piloting 3way where the orifice to the pilot controlled the pulse duration. In the clippard valve you actually change the volume at the pilot to control delay. Using this idea I went to syja series smc valves which are the smallest I'm aware of. Using a clippard 1 way flow controller to vary the pulse valve orifice rather than being wasteful and controlling volume.

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[Pyrate Jim]

FASOR. Tell me if I have this right;
Forward Air Spring Operated Return.
I could be wrong, but that sounds like an AutoMag.

[the_hyren]

FASOR. Tell me if I have this right;
Forward Air Spring Operated Return.
I could be wrong, but that sounds like an AutoMag.

Yes, also Primal Raven, JDS King Cobra, Mini Gs and Axe, Vanguard Creed, all the Diablo Wrath variants, the older DP Fusions, and the Tippmann Phenom and Crossover.

Probably more.

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[Trbo323]

Yes, also Primal Raven, JDS King Cobra, Mini Gs and Axe, Vanguard Creed, all the Diablo Wrath variants, the older DP Fusions, and the Tippmann Phenom and Crossover.

Probably more.

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Vanguard creed is full ep poppet

I can't believe nobody has mentioned this

All automags ever produced

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[ChoSanJuan]

Yeah, but I meant conversions from electro to just straight pneumatic. I forgot that my Mini GS is a FASOR. That's the newest in my lineup and probably my most expensive . Not gonna back that up any time soon. LOL

[Jordan]

FASORs are, traditionally, poppet guns with spring-return, ram driven, hammers. I'm not sure how the term came to encompass all markers with a spring that returned the bolt assembly, but the first time I heard the term it was being applied to ICD's BKO.

[Trbo323]

FASORs are, traditionally, poppet guns with spring-return, ram driven, hammers. I'm not sure how the term came to encompass all markers with a spring that returned the bolt assembly, but the first time I heard the term it was being applied to ICD's BKO.

Really anything that has a 3 way, rather than a 5 way noid (if electro) and uses a spring to reset the marker can fall under that description.

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[the_hyren]

FASORs are, traditionally, poppet guns with spring-return, ram driven, hammers. I'm not sure how the term came to encompass all markers with a spring that returned the bolt assembly, but the first time I heard the term it was being applied to ICD's BKO.

While Ive never owned a BKO I believe they are not spring return. The B2K and Promaster are not spring return. In favt the Promaster is sprung forwards as they had bolt stick issues in prototyping.

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