setting up a couple mags for my boys - issues and reccomendations

[Drcemento]

recently picked up a classic mag and a Minimag - I've got two boys with the paintball itch. I'm a lifelong autococker and sniper guy. It quickly became apparent those giant, heavy beasts are just to much for the little dudes to run around with, so I figured it was time to learn something new - i've always liked the look of the mags and once I got them they seemed to be able to handle them nicely, and they are stoked on the look.

the set-ups
I've been through them both - been fun to take them apart with the boys - cleaned, replaced seals and springs. both air up and cycle. both have docs wonderful adapter. both bottom lined with 14" stainless hoses, quick connects, and I'm running both on anti siphon Co2 tanks. both run 14" deadly wind barrels with freak inserts

the issues:

• velocity is a mess - can't seam to stabilize it
• ball chopping consistently - the older right hand feed is the worst
• sticky triggers seems to be part of the issue - definitely not a nice crisp pull

questions, observations

• I want to run these on co2 - its what i know and have readily available
  • what can i do to optimize the setups to run Co2? - expansion chambers? regs? - I have a CP reg and an old air america vigilante would those help? - I'm aware automags we're never really meant for Co2, but back in the day plenty of guys had their mags singing just fine on C02 so i know its possible. would a PPS stab be a good option like it is on my cockers?
  • that should help the velocity problem?
• ball chopping - I'm looking for another power feed - the minimag clearly has less issues than the RF but both will very messily chop a ball in the breach regularly
  • do it have tolevel ten them to help with that?
  • how much of this is the insanely delicate and undersized paint we end up with these days
  • my power tubes don't have the foamies on them - I think they both pre-date them
• trigger
  • i know this is related to the on- off valves and have read that the RT valve can drop into the classic frames - worth it?

any other advice for setting these up within those parameters would be greatly appreciated. I've done allot of reading on mags now but none of it has helped me really figure out a path forward.

-Joe

[Toestr]

Mags can do CO2 like you said but they're really best with HPA. An expansion chamber would likely help, regs probably wouldn't. Are you using fresh reg seats? Those going bad and CO2 in the gun are the main causes of velocity swings (other than bad paint). Have you regreased the reg piston?

I noticed you said you don't have any foamies for your bolts? Are the bolts made for foamies (see pic 1 vs pic 2)? If you're using a foamie bolt without the actual foamie bit you could be getting some rollback. I never had issues doing this with a gravity fed hopper, but I could definitely see this being an issue with force feed loaders. The fact that you say you're getting fewer chops with the powerfeed makes it sound like you're getting blowback in the feedstack. Is the neck on the RF body cut down and the elbow blocking the hole? Probably not that big an issue if you're not Speedy Gonzalez on the trigger. I've never had any issues with level 7 bolts in my mags but I don't shoot that much. Level 10 isn't necessary but basically makes chopping impossible. Downside is that it's more difficult to setup and has a tendency to walk itself out of tune compared to a level 7 that is pretty much golden so long as it's setup correctly.

What exactly do you mean by trigger stick? Is the sear rod not pushing it back hard enough?

Yes you can drop RT valves into classic bodies. If you're using CO2 they will 100% guaranteed freeze within a few shots no matter what you do to keep liquid out.

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[Olsson]

A bit further down in this section, there is an article that details some of the common issues with Automags.

https://www.mcarterbrown.com/forum/p...automag-owners

As for my own experiences, yes, a lvl-7 bolt will chop paint if the paint isn't fed quickly enough. You pull the trigger - the steel bolt springs forward. So, if you outshoot your hopper's feed rate, anything in the way will be chopped. As you noted, your right feed chops more than - I assume your vertical feed? EDIT: After actually reading what you wrote, your right feed chops more than your power feed. (Note to self: read before jumping to key board.) This is most probably due to blowback from expanding CO2. My main Automag has a right feed, and I have never experienced blow back or feed problems on HPA.

The solution is either a lvl-10 bolt, as you surmised, a force feed hopper, or some serious self-constraint. The latter has never worked for me, even though I pointlessly keep trying, even this last Sunday, with breaks as a result...

By the way, if you're using a power feel, make sure that you have the newer style plug with a parabolic curve to it. The older design can lead to feed issues, especially with a force feed hopper, which might seem counter intuitive. I'll try to insert a picture here.



Regarding small paint, the small size is primarily an issue in two cases. If the paint is so small (or the detents bad enough) that the paint double feeds, or if it is so small that the next ball in the stack gets hit by the top part of the bolt each time you pull the trigger. This last problem is actually aggravated by a force feed hopper, since the balls in tension cannot shift upward when the bolt hits them. This is actually one if the problems behind why even modern electros have breaks when they shouldn't.

On the issue of lvl-10 bolts, the opinion is divided. Some people think they are too much of a hassle, some people swear by them. Personally, I think they are the greatest piece of kit ever invented for a mechanical marker. Once set up, your Automag simply will not chop paint. There might be the occasional ball break in the barrel, but no more chops. My favorite valve is closing in on approximately 200K rounds fired, and so far, I may have chopped paint once. It may, or may not, have been a break, but I cannot be sure.


Sticky trigger - what specifically do you mean by sticky trigger? There is an Automag issue that is called bolt stick, although it doesn't seem like what you're referring to. If it is just the feel of the trigger pull, my guess is that you're mostly reflecting upon how much it differs from the trigger pull of an Autococker. And herein lies the rub - they differ greatly. It is my firm opinion that this is one of the main issues why so many people over the years have been either staunch Automag guys, or just as adamantly staunch Autococker guys, vehemently claiming that their platform was the better, since the other felt like crap. It is simply all about which one you got used to first.

Yes, an RT on/off is a simple drop in on a Classic valve. The main characteristic of how the trigger pull feels will still be there, but it will be noticeably lighter, which is why people see it as an upgrade. However, if you are out shooting your hopper as it is, this probably will not help.

To the issue with CO2. First and foremost, any RT, Emag or Xvalve should not be run on CO2. Apart from these, it should be possible for you to get them to run properly on CO2. However, as you seem to be aware of, they will cause issues if liquid CO2 gets into them. So yes, back in the day rather large expansion chambers as front grip was very much the norm. I cannot say from experience if a PPS stab would be a valid option, or any other regulator for that matter, but I would guess that they would primarily function as an expansion chamber anyway, but with risk of restricting the gas flow. I'm sure there are several MCBers with know how about this.

[Jordan]

I have successfully run Classic Mags on Co2, but an expansion chamber and properly matched A/S tank is a must.

Did you get rebuild kits from AGD? They're generally the best way to go, Mags are fussy with their seals. And OIL OIL OIL - Mags like lubrication regularly. No. Grease.

Are you using at least 12V Revvies? You'll need an agitated hopper of some kind, shake-and-bake ain't going to cut it.

There are a few versions of the stock lvl7 bolt. Personally I prefer the newest version without the foamie, long nose bolts have always worked best for me.

[Drcemento]

Thanks Jordan
Got the rebuild kits from AGD. noticed they don't give you ALL the orings... esp in the on off valves. little annoying.

no revvies - a 200rnd hopper is allot of weight - trying to keep it light as possible anybody make a 100rnd revvie loader anymore?

[Meleager7]

Did you make those Anti Siphon co2 tanks yourself, and have them matched to each gun (or more specifically the ASA on each gun) ?

If you acquired the anti siphon tanks seperately and just threw them on the guns, they might end up with the A\S tube upside down, and be causing a Siphon effect, the opposite of what you intended.

[Drcemento]

built them myself - specific to each gun

[maggot]

Hi Joe, lots of good advice already, but probably a little overwhelming to you.
Post pics of each overall setup. Post a pic of the 2 bolts you're using.

Long story short, you're going to want the right powerfeed plug, the more modern long-nose lvl7 bolts, and you're going to want to use an angled ASA with foregrips (expansion chambers) to keep liquid out.
Should really be that simple, no need to spend a boatload of cash and over-complicate things with L10 bolts, RT valves, custom bodies, etc.

Only thing that may not be possible to get just right without dropping dough on custom parts is the velocity. Unfortunately the old Mag barrels just don't play all that well with today's tiny paint. I've found I still get great overall accuracy with 20fps velocity swings and the guns are entirely playable. Just have to have that expectation going in.


Here's an example of a mag that's setup to play well on CO2 (angled ASA and foregrip).

[Drcemento]

oooohhh thats a sweet rig.

[Drcemento]

Thanks everyone for some good late night responses. to further elaborate:

"sticky trigger" - i think this is more to do with the on off valve - particularly in the minimag. these things are complete mysteries to my autococker eyes - maybe i need to get more lube in there to help that pin move? the trigger seems particularly sensitive to my kids habit of "resting fingers". you have to distinctly pull and let go of the trigger or you can short stroke it. again as an autococker guy it may just be a big re-adjustment and getting the boys used to pulling the trigger correctly

I will go in and clean and lube the regulator spring - they seamed ok so i just put them back in and did not add lube, but it's clear it seems to be a number one thing to check - I should use dow 33 silicone lube correct?

sound like I need an expansion chamber - suggestions- anyone still make them? I see superman has some powerfeed bodies and expansion chambers for sale still. since its just a chamber I'm guessing you can't go to far astray...

we were running pro-shar paint through it for testing. this stuff is .677 - the smallest paint I've come across yet, and extremely brittle. so i'm sure its not helping

anybody make a 100 round revy? really trying to keep these light!

as stated above I made the anti siphons for each gun so that should not be the issue.

hoping someone can better explain why a reg is probably not a good thing in mags seeing how critical they are to other guns?

as to the bolts - they look like late style level sevens - all stainless, with a curved seat for the ball. temped to get a level 10 and give it a go in one but thats allot of scratch!

will break them down and post pics of the on-offs tonight and see what exactly i have because I'm not 100% and both are different.

[MrBarraclough]

Mags have a reg built into the gun, and in fact were the first to do this. The A.I.R. valve stands for Advanced Integrated Regulator. Mags were actually designed for HPA before HPA was a thing, because Tom Kaye was an early advocate of replacing CO2 with compressed air. To make them backwards compatible with CO2, though, they had to also be designed run at high input pressure. Putting another reg between the AIR valve and the tank has a tendency to starve the gun, since the system can work only as fast as the recharge rate of the slowest reg in the chain. That being said, I had some moderate success using a Bob Long Power Reg to keep liquid out of my mag back in the 90s, though. If I were setting up a mag to run on CO2 today, I would go with an expansion chamber in the vertical ASA. That is probably even more important than running an anti-siphon tank. Liquid CO2 is absolute Kryptonite to mags. Keep the liquid out, and they are amazing machines. Let it in and there is no end to the misbehavior.

I've found that running a Doc's adapter with a force fed hopper has virtually eliminated chops in my classic mag with Level 7 bolt. Admittedly, the powerfeed Minimag body I put on it last year may be helping as well. As Toestr mentioned, check to see if you're obstructing the vent hole in the feedneck of the mag body. Since mags have zero dwell, they tend to experience blowback up the feedneck. Keeping positive pressure on the ball stack works wonders to eliminate chopping. Also check that you're using a true foamieless bolt, and not a foamie bolt with missing foamie, which would leave room for rollback.

What size bore are you screwing into the Doc's adapter? I wonder if maybe you're getting barrel breaks instead of chops if you might be trying to force fragile paint through a tight bore using a relatively high pressure marker.

Mags easily outshoot gravity hoppers. You need at least a Revvy if not a true force-fed. I understand you're trying to keep weight down. Revvies themselves weigh little (old 9V VL2000s weigh even less). If you're concerned about the weight of the paint, I wonder if you could carve a styrofoam insert to cut down the capacity of a Revvy?

[Toestr]

For the on/off, make sure you have the top oriented correctly (most are omni directional). There's likely an end with a thicker OD, and an end with a thinner OD and some sort of cuts in it. The thicker part goes up. If this is upsidedown it can cause the shoot down and the on/off to recharge slower than it should. Also, make sure there's credit card thickness of space between the sear rod and the back of the trigger when it's gassed up and on safe.

Dow33 is what you want for the reg spring pack and piston.

For expansion chambers, I'd recommend making sure it's an actual expansion chamber and not just a gas though for best results. Not sure if brand really matters, but I'd prefer an AA over Kingman or 32 degrees just based on reputation and for style points.

Paint size is less of an issue for you because you have a doc's adapter and freak kit, but it probably doesn't help.

For loaders, there was the VL tripod that had a 140rd shell, but those are pretty hard to find and I'm not sure on the quality of plastic. The GOG multical and pbdna hoppers are going to be the absolute best you can get from gravity fed.

Mag regulators require tank pressure input to work properly. If you added a reg before the valve you'd need to either disable the built in reg or have your other reg at a pressure where it's doing little to nothing other than restricting flow.

The bolts you described sound like venturi bolts, which may cause rollback.

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[Myrkul]

Are your Doc's adapter's dual detented or single detented? My RF mag was a pure blender with a single detented Doc's adapter. Rollouts, continual breaks, velocity jumpy as all hell because the paint would be halfway down the barrel....it was completely unusable. This was shooting D3fy which is around 0.684, so on the larger side of modern paint. I asked Doc to send me a dual detented one and ALL the issues cleared up pretty much immediately. I would start there. I do use a Level 10 bolt to be softer on paint as well, and if short stroking is an issue for your boys you can drop an R/T on/off pin in, that makes the pull much lighter and harder to short stroke.

PB DNA makes a 100 rd revy, the Mojo, they are pretty awesome!

https://paintballdna.com/product-category/loaders/

You REALLY don't want to add another regulator to a mag, it'll just starve the A.I.R.

Had this puppy out last weekend and it shot stupid good. I believe the valve on it is from 93....

[Drcemento]

I did not catch that Mojo loader when I looked on his sight. had fun playing with PBDNA up at Bacci's game this summer. need to find some revy internals but I will order one for sure

[Drcemento]

oddly enough the RF automag has the double detent docs and the minimag only has the single. will look into sending it in and getting it fixed.

[Drcemento]

Here’s the classic RF and associated valve assembly…




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[MrBarraclough]

You can at least be sure you aren't installing the on/off top upside down, as that is one of the later symmetrical tops.

[Drcemento]

And here’s the minimag in question…





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[Myrkul]

This one has the R/T on/off.

[Drcemento]

thank you all again for great responses and reccomendations

as you can see in the above photos I have two different on/off assemblies - any good/bad things about either? later/early?


since the RF automag cycled and shot decently I did not go in and replace everything. Tonight I did replace the power tube seals and the reg seat and reg seal o-rings.
when I aired up it started leaking badly between the valve body and regulator. I finally replaced the new o-rings with the origional o-rings and the leaking stopped... any ideas?

the spring pack assembly needed grease, but I'm out of dow 33 so that will have to wait.

[Myrkul]

It also looks like you have your gas lines bypassing the expansion chambers/front grips, and neither of your ASA's are angled. You'll pull liquid into the valve with both of these.

[Alexndl]

The on/off on the classic mag is the standard one
the one on the minimag is a ULT and from AGD website should not be use on classic valve

https://www.airgundesigns.com/product-p/003020.htm

You can buy from AGD an on/off assembly and then your trigger pull wil be sharp and crisp

At the same time you could buy rebuild kit for your valve and check if the sear are still in good condition
Then both your mag will be good as new

For the dow33, automag really like oil too, there are two oil port at the bottom of the reg. Your piston and spring pack will be ok with couple of drop per oil port

[superman]

It is actually an rt on/off and as long as it has the .740-.745 pin it should be fine. The classic on/off with teflon orings would be a better option for c02 though.

[Drcemento]

OK - a few parts showed up that allowed me to actually finish these up. I ran the gas through the foregrip and got the angled ASA's on to help that gas expand prior to going through the valve.

the classic mag is firing much more consistently now and the velocity is finally under control. running some bigger and more robust Valken graffiti through it is definitely helping the chopping issue though I think a powerfeed and a revy need to be found.

the MiniMag however. is giving me trouble. I put in a new classic On/off switch with plenty of oil, greased the regulator spring and put it all back together. now, when I Air it up CO2 shoots down the barrel. it does cycle, and when I pull and hold the trigger the air stops shooting out the barrel - let go and it's back. any ideas? I've already replaced all the Orings. prior to removing the RT on/off it aired up fine and cycled - until the on/off froze from the co2

will post some pics - hoping to resolve the minimag issue first though.

[Jordan]

Minimag sounds like the powertube oring.

[MrBarraclough]

That or the spacer (or spring if old enough).