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    Phantom Springing

    New to me, first time owning a Phantom.

    Running stock class setup with 12g co2, will changing the springs have any positive effect?

    have plenty of cocker springs on hand.

    #2
    I guess I'll take a crack at this, though there are others with way more experience.

    The universal truth seems to be the stock setup (silver hammer spring) is the best overall all-around setup for 12-ies and HPA on a Phantom. Sticking with the stock setup means you can focus more on paint, the weather, or just having fun at the field without having to mess with much if anything on the gun.

    If you want to dance with the devil in the pale moonlight, results may vary, and they may depend on the specific marker, your location, the climate, and on and on.

    In a nutshell, it seems to come down to balancing the valve. You've got air pressure and a spring on the "valve" side, and a spring and a weighted hammer on the other side. You can go full rabbit hole on this if you want. However, CCI used to offer a stiffer or softer main springs aka hammer springs (red and blue springs), depending on how you wanted to go.

    Generally, a softer hammer spring opens the valve less allowing it to closes quicker, allowing less C02 through and improving efficiency, but this may prevent you from getting up to 280 fps. Where a stronger hammer spring will open the valve longer or allow a lighter hammer to achieve a similar balance to the stock setup.

    Considering a 12gram will vary output pressure and shot count depending on ambient temps, this may be a path towards lunacy on game day. However, know that you can always return to the stock silver hammer spring and be pretty much good to go in the widest variety of conditions.

    #9 is the valve spring.
    #19 is the hammer spring.

    What kind of Phantom setup are you rocking? Pictures always help!
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Bang*Bang**; 08-16-2020, 08:24 PM. Reason: edited to correct the note about the coloured springs being HAMMER springs, NOT valve springs.

    Comment


      #3
      I'm kinda in the if it works don't mess with it camp. But there are others that have gotten some pretty impressive shots per 12gm by messing with spring combinations. Bang bang has got you on the right track but There is no magic set up every phantom reacts differently to different springs combos. you just have to play around and see what works,but your stock silver and silver seems to work with most set ups.


      Comment


        #4
        It's 110 on the field I play at, I think I was starting to shoot hot halfway into each game, didn't know if a spring combination would smooth that out.

        Haven't used touched CO2 until now in over a decade.

        Comment


        • Chuck E Ducky

          Chuck E Ducky

          commented
          Editing a comment
          That’s hot for 12g you will see pressure spikes at that temperature. Pressure spikes usually cause low velocity or the valve to choke. If you play regularly at that extreme temperatures I suggest a regulated setup.

        • greystone
          greystone commented
          Editing a comment
          Ahh...makes sense now. Was pressure spiked/choking in beginning of game and as I started shooting it dropped the co2 temperature to get back to full FPS shots?

        • Bang*Bang**

          Bang*Bang**

          commented
          Editing a comment
          Re choking - probably, yes. Remember it's all about balancing the two sides of the valve.

          If pressure is spiking in the valve, that's like adding way more "air spring" tension, so the hammer and hammer spring now won't balance and the valve will slam shut too quickly.

          It's kind of like sweet spotting a regulator.

          As pressure drops on the CO2, the hammer and spring regain balance and the velocity will come back up because the valve will stay open the correct amount, where as before it was being slammed back shut by the excess pressure.

        #5
        I'm not a phantom expert but I believe things like fluted hammers and ported TPCs get thrown in with different spring combos as well. Haven't seen any direct sources for these in a few years though.

        Comment


          #6
          The colored springs are main springs, not for the valve. Silver is standard, red is +15% strength, blue is -15% strength. Changing main spring affects velocity and is necessary if you cannot reach playable velocity through adjusting the TPC alone.

          Comment


          • Bang*Bang**

            Bang*Bang**

            commented
            Editing a comment
            My bad. Thank you for the correction!

          #7
          I misunderstood your original post as you were looking for more efficiency.

          Start with a lighter hammer spring(won't open the valve as much) and see if you can make velocity. or if you have valve springs try a heavier one (less time the valve is open) and see what you get.

          How is your phantom set up vertical changer or off the back? I run vertical most of the time it gives the co2 more room to expand and helps keep liquid co2 out of the valve.

          how are you storing your 12gms between games? Just thinking if the're stored in a cooler air conditioned staging are then you hit the field that maybe you're whole problem right there.

          Comment


          • greystone
            greystone commented
            Editing a comment
            Thanks!
            Running vert for co2. Unfortunately at my field, even in the staging area its outside and full sun. You will be lucky if you get a half shaded spot. Arizona life.

          • Chuck E Ducky

            Chuck E Ducky

            commented
            Editing a comment
            Regulate it around 800-825psi Use the stock silver springs. You should get amazing efficiency at 110*.

            CO2 works great as long as you work within it’s limitations. Your biggest issue is going to be pressure spikes due to heat. You are going to want to regulate your setup.

          • Bang*Bang**

            Bang*Bang**

            commented
            Editing a comment
            I'm with Chuck on this one. Hot temps and CO2 seem to be a good combo for regulators... you lucky duck.

          #8
          Cocker springs might be too long, especially for the valve. They stopped making valve springs a long time ago as well. As Bang Bang said, many factors affect your shot count/velocity. You might want to adjust your velocity in the sun to match your playing temps if it keeps changing.

          On a side note, the fluted hammer does provide imporvement in shot count if you match it with a stiffer spring as Bang Bang was saying. I've been testing this for a while with Madman Springs from the 90's that had different valve spring tensions. I've improved my shot count in Hawaiian weather about 10 shots, from 30 to 40 at 280fps. However fluted hammers and old school springs are hard to come by. Another problem to the tradeoff however is that the newer CCI cup seals get stuck in the valve and your phantom stops shooting at times because the valve spring tension might be smashing the cup seal too much. Perhaps this is why they stopped producing them?

          I had my own valve springs produced from a friend in Japan so I could test thigns further, but the same problem still persisted, the valve got stuck due to the spring tension and I could not shoot. I'm working now on an alternate cup seal using different materials that might hold up to the spring tension better.

          Comment


            #9
            Since it sounds like the OP is living in 110 F temperatures and the recommendation was for a regulator. I thought I'd share some more info from the old forum.

            There was a really cool post from RussC about sweet spotting regulators and using a 12-ies on a Sniper setup. He made the argument that, if possible, a dual regulator setup would be AMAMZING for CO2 efficiency.

            The reason being, CO2 causes an endothermic reaction when turning from liquid to gas, meaning it needs to absorb heat to turn to gas. So, the more opportunities it has to absorb ambient heat, the better for shot count. More regulators means more chances for the CO2 to mix with air.

            The challenge with Phantoms, is that the main valve needs to see about 800 psi to work as designed (stock). From what I've heard about regulators, they need a 100-200psi drop to function.

            So, if there is 1000+ psi coming out of your 12 gram at 110 F, you might be able to live the dream and run a dual regulator with 12ies on a Phantom.

            It's more bulk and more stuff to maintain, but it might be worth a shot for fun, if nothing else.

            RussC did have a hand in testing/designing the Averatech Retro 7, which I've heard gets some crazy numbers of shots out of 12 grams. So it would be cool to test his hypothesis on an actual Phantom, if you have the temperatures to try it.

            I haven't heard many people test or run dual regulators on a Phantom.

            Comment


              #10
              This is an easy solution for me; at 110F I'm simply not playing

              But I will echo what others have said. Stick to the stock springs unless you can't get it to chrono under 280, then try the blue hammer spring. (Except that I'm checking out the website now and it appears the new guy only carries the red spring and silver springs... le sigh).

              Or, as suggested above, a regulator would be a good move, in which case you can simply turn down the pressure and not need to bother with swapping springs.

              I do find that with mine (unregulated) that I have to swap springs between CO2 and HPA, otherwise I have trouble reaching the correct velocity
              Dulce et decorum est pro comoedia mori

              Comment


                #11
                This all makes sense to me guys, thank you.

                It's super inconsistent currently.

                At the same time, I'm absolutely floored how many shots I'm getting out of a 12g. Even then, when it seems like its "low" on co2 and I go to change the 12g, sometimes I'm getting a big (everyone looks my way) POP HISS of co2 left in the 12g. (Doh, should have left it in!)

                Bummed to hear about the regulators, one of the joys of playing stock class with the Phantom for the first time this weekend was how unencumbered and "free" it feels in comparison to open class sniper pumps or playing with electros.

                What are my options other than Palmer's stabilizer?

                Comment


                  #12
                  Is there something like this integrated 12g changer/regulator that will go up to the aformentioned 800psi?
                  https://palmerspursuit.com/products/...13adc284&_ss=r

                  Comment


                  #13
                  One thing I see brought up a lot is the "air spring" behind the valve that supposedly exists. I think this is largely something that comes from the autococker/sniper world where the valve sealing surface is huge and spring tensions are relatively light. On Nelson valved guns I have NEVER had an issue with pressures spiking and causing low shots. My experience has been that velocity just goes up in these cases. On a unibody phantom I had years ago I ended up having to swap in the lightest hammer spring because it was on a 7oz CO2 tank in the middle of the summer at 80 degrees. This is all with stock valve/hammer springing. I'm sure if you really wanted to show this air spring effect you could run a lighter spring combo for both and make it happen.

                  Another factor to consider is that Nelson valves don't flow like other valves. The airflow isn't THROUGH the valve face, it's past the valve face into the transfer ports in the power tube. Therefore the flow isn't in the direction that would return the cup seal to the valve face but actually perpendicular to that valve face.

                  In terms of springs though...just run the stock CCI spring set and don't mess with it too much. There isn't much to be gained beyond the original design.

                  Comment


                    #14
                    I have always been in the Keep it Simple no reg needed on a Phantom camp. However due to the extreme conditions the OP is playing in Arizona 110* days I think the issue is the CO2 pressure is spiking choking the valve. I have heard of this happening regs solved the issue. I have never experienced this myself but when it 110* in NY I’m staying close to the pool. I’m to fat and old to be running around in 100*+ heat. lol

                    In the OP case I think regulating may be his best bet to keep pressures consistent. I recommend the palmers regs. Make sure the the reg you use operates at least to 800-825psi I have found this to be the best range for stock silver springs on both HPA and 12g/CO2.

                    Comment

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