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Snipers on 12 grams / on CO2 Discussion

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    Snipers on 12 grams / on CO2 Discussion

    Really enjoyed this thread on the old MCB, so I'm trying to compress some of the information into a new thread for further discussion.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20110319...iscussion.html

    Sweetspotting:

    Originally posted by russc
    Ignore gauge pressures altogether. Every gun has a different sweetspot. The only tool you need is a chronograph, a fistful of paint and about 5 minutes. Bring your pressure all the way down, so that the balls are just lobbing out. You want it high enough so that it doesn't vent after a shot. Turn the IVG (rear adjuster) out most of the way, maybe one or two turns in.

    Now, once you are at a low pressure and your IVG is backed out almost all the way, start turning your regulator pressure up, just like 1/4 to 1/8 turn at a time, chronoing after every change. Try to get the gun shooting as hot as possible, without touching the IVG. That means if you can get the gun shooting 350 fps, all the better.

    Don't stop turning the pressure up until the FPS stops going up. If your FPS starts going down, turn your pressure back a bit. You want it to shoot as hot as possible.

    Now, once you hit that peak pressure, that's your sweetspot. You should never touch your regulator at all, not even to chrono after you set the sweetspot. It's the perfect pressure for your gun and anything lower or higher will not shoot as good for you, particularly with 12 grams. If you need to turn the gun up or down at this point, use the IVG. If you can't turn it down enough, you need to either clip the spring or get a softer mainspring. Again, do not turn the pressure down no matter how easy it would be compared to swapping springs. If you want the best efficiency and consistency you want your gun at this peak pressure.

    Remember, gauges are unnecessary except for bragging to your friends that "my gun is shooting XXX psi!!!" When someone says
    turn your gun to 350 psi," they may be offering advice to get your gun working, however that's sure as hell not the way you should tune your gun. Getting your gun to shoot, and getting it to shoot as best it can are two different things.
    Originally posted by Goggled_Gurl
    excelent post russc

    paintballnerd there is a second version of the sweetspotting technic,this is not to confuse you just to let you know you may encounter it, essentially you start with your IVG turned in half way into the body,find optimal reg pressure as russ instructed then back the IVG out to optimal velocity we picked this version up from an old palmers tech,we have found that both versions work well so its not a matter of one over the other.

    if your starting with a maddman spring kit, wich is the most common and available kit at this point,our go to springs to get started with are a blue valve/green main,and experiment from there,keep in mind also when tuning for efficiency with springing the feel of the gun will change somtimes you will have to make a compramise between feel and performance.

    to reiterate what russ said,sitting down with the gun and a bag of the best paint you can get in the best conditions possible and taking your time is the way to get the most out of your gun,make small adjustments and be patient gauges are unnescasary

    its easyer and i feel more accurate, to tune from a bench mounted set up,use a red chrono, support the gun so the barrel sits in the same spot for each shot over the chrono,red chronos dont like bright sun somtimes so try and keep shaded

    get the best paint you can find,pour some out, keep your bare hands off of it and sperate any mishapen dented or dimpled balls that you can see

    get the best paint to bore match you can aswell, this all sounds tedious,dont be to anal about it just takes a few extra minutes to reduce headaches

    and make nice even complete pump strokes for each shot


    good luck
    Tests in chronological order:

    Originally posted by russc
    First of all, I have a set of shots I'd like to share.


    These were made with a stock 2k4 WGP gun, black magic reg, .684 Un1tec barrel, line SI lever changer in bottomline config, stock aluminum open face bolt. All shots were made without holding the pump, rubber band used as return spring. Shot interval was about 5-10 seconds as I only had two paintballs, so every shot I walked over and picked the ball back up after shooting it into a hanging bathrobe.

    1. *forgot to chrono(
    227 (adjusted)
    296
    300
    304
    289
    291
    296
    297
    10. 309
    295
    295
    295
    293
    291
    293
    294
    296
    290
    20. 294
    302
    291
    292
    294
    296
    299
    298
    295
    296
    30. 294
    298
    298
    303
    296
    300
    302
    303
    302
    *lost ball*
    291
    40. 289
    324
    340 (WTF! Gun loses sweetspot, starts to shoot hot)
    43. 291
    233 - vented after shot

    As you can see, not only does it get insane efficiency to rival the best Nelson setups out there, but the FPS curve is essentially flat until you get to the last 3-4 shots. I don't believe this gun was properly sweet spotted as you can see when the regged pressure dipped at the end the gun went all the way up to 340 fps. 43 shots in total, all of them in the top range of allowable velocities.

    Keep in mind, this is an unmodified mid-pressure stock WGP gun with a 12gram changer in the bottomline duckbill.

    So, there's a few things that are worth discussing here.

    1. Regged low-med pressure 12 gram guns can get a flatter pressure curve, while getting just about as many shots.

    2. "dead space" is less significant, if not inconsequential in a regged setup versus an unregged setup where all expansion is avoided.

    3. The sweet spot on Snipers have potential for abuse. This is why I tell people who want to run unregged CO2 or HPA into their Snipers to get a pre-2k valve. Say you start at 280 fps, with the unregged pressure slamming your valve shut. Once your pressure starts dropping you will begin to have insanely high velocity as the gun is reaching its sweet spot the lower you go.

    4. Why don't more stock class setups incorporate regulators, as a flat pressure curve is more desirable than a dipping pressure curve, given that you aren't losing many shots, if any.
    Originally posted by russc
    I don't think the pre-reg expansion actually matters at all. It might even help stop liquid from going past the reg. I have the bottomline, macro, now a pressure gauge after the reg too and I'm at shot #38 in this new test and I'm at 288 fps.

    [edit] turns out shot 38 was the last one. I'll post the list in a sec but the reg tester did hurt efficiency a bit.


    did another test. This time I have a reg tester on the gun post-reg, it appears to have slightly hurt the efficiency, so devolumizing may still be a good idea...to a point. You want enough to seal your valve and allow for good consistency, but too much can still hurt. I still think it's the post-reg volume that will end up mattering the most.

    I re-sweet spotted the reg, you can tell the difference now that it doesn't shoot up at the end. Turned mainspring out abuot 3 turns, 240 was the post-sweetspotting pressure, not sure what it was before.

    1. 293
    242 <- second ball, grungy and old
    281
    290
    280
    292
    286
    281
    252 <--second ball, I stop using it after this shot
    10. 284
    283
    279
    289
    293
    290
    290
    290
    285
    287
    20. 300
    295
    294
    295
    299
    296
    291
    299
    294
    296
    30. 297
    292
    297
    295
    295
    295
    292
    288
    38. 240
    vents, last shot.

    Soo...who's going to build the first low pressure regulated KP-2 with a turned down cocker valve?
    Originally posted by russc
    Here's a test on my pre2k sniper:

    AA Unireg
    14" .685 un1tec
    stock valve, sweetspotted at 500 psi
    SI lever changer on XSV duckbill
    Carter venturi bolt

    1. 290
    288
    287
    286
    290
    290
    287
    289
    287
    10. 290
    295
    292
    289
    295
    284
    287
    ?
    286
    285
    20. 290
    291
    290
    296
    284
    284
    289
    286
    271
    293
    30. 284
    30. 292
    292
    283
    288
    283
    36. 263
    227 - vents after shot

    Again, a two shot drop in an otherwise flat FPS curve. The 2k+ got better efficiency, but I am running a venturi in this gun which may make a difference. Pressure is also about 250 psi higher and the springing is much harder.
    Originally posted by Viherkogen
    After reading this I had to test my own sniper to see how it matched up against others. I also took the time to see what a little devolumization did for efficiency.

    The first test occured at dusk with my regular setup. It was an 02 right feed with stock valve running red valve spring and green main. It is being fed with a BL Torpedo that I had sweet spotted a while back, but I think it could use some improvement. The bolt was a delrin open face bolt with orings removed. Barrel was a J&J Edge kit with .685 back (only one ball rolled out during both tests. I was using a Copperhead 12g. Paint was some 2 month old Xball from Dick's but it was rotated and dimple free. Size did vary, though.

    The first test was at 80* under my carport. Both the gun and 12g were kept inside at 71* till testing started. The changer was on the bottom line with a Tippmann asa and 5" of macro. 5-10 sec between each shot to record the fps.

    1. 269
    276
    --
    275
    266
    266
    271
    259
    260
    270
    11. 256
    279
    264
    268
    262
    268
    264
    --
    269
    261
    21. 268
    266
    258
    278
    280
    280
    265
    28. 253
    209
    -- (dumps air)

    28 good shots before dropoff. Not bad compared to most guns, but it's still low compared to the others posted.
    This led me to see what pre and post reg expansion does for efficiency. The next morning I removed the bottomline and used my Vert air adapter from my phantom to attach the changer vertically to the reg. I also took up .1 cu/in from the total .4 cu/in of space in the chamber using some cylinder bearings. I also put a similar bearing after the reg in the asa threads. The test was similar with 84* outside temp and gun/12g being 71* from inside.

    1. 239
    246
    248
    237
    249
    245
    263
    236
    242
    237
    11. 252
    255
    239
    248
    245
    239
    261
    244
    240
    246
    21. 261
    244
    249
    245
    246
    239
    247
    255
    249
    247
    31. 249
    247
    239
    243
    35. 247
    207
    167(vents)

    7 extra shots. This could very well be a combination of a larger fill in the 12g, the 21 fps lower average shot(267v246), and lower pre/post reg expansion. Not bad considering how little work was required to get that. More time needs to be put in to work out how much each individual change affects the total. The 20th I'll be playing some games, so I'll see how my shot count goes. If I have some extra 12g and paint left, I'll keep testing.
    Originally posted by drg
    Finally took the time to run this test on my mQ gun ...
    mQ2 sniper, '03 halfblocked full-size body, jcurt bolt, WWA pump kit, Pi regulator, Universal T-board @ 4ms dwell, no capacitor. Kaner 14" .682 back. Rat attack dropout QC screwed into bottomline.
    Chronod to ~280 fps on a somewhat questionable tank before performing tests. One shot every 3-5 seconds.

    Pull #1, using 9.6v NiMH battery
    1. 291.4
    280.3
    275.7
    280
    277.5
    281.7
    276.5
    279.0
    272.7
    10. 277.5
    279.3
    280.9
    278.6
    274.2
    278.0
    0 <--- blank
    273.6
    277.5
    276.5
    20. 279.7
    280.8
    277.2
    267
    274.4
    275.9
    276.2
    274.4
    271.5
    272.8
    30. 273.6
    275.0
    274.7
    273.9
    277.2
    271.6
    275.1
    278.7
    282.0
    291.6 <- Low pressure hot shots
    40. 291.3
    255.0 <- Drop off point
    130.7 <- Last shot, ball doesn't leave barrel after this.

    40 shots, maybe 41 if you count the 255 shot.
    standard deviation including first high shot and low pressure hot shots: 5.13
    standard deviation between those: 3.27

    Pull #2, 9v li-ion battery (required pressure raise a bit)
    1. 264.6 <- Eh?
    275
    281
    276
    273.7
    271.8
    279.5
    279.2
    280.6
    10. 285.1
    278.2
    276.6
    279.9
    279.2
    281.3
    277.6
    274.9
    277.8
    277.5
    20. 282.4
    281.1
    286.2
    279.1
    284.9
    279.4
    284
    281.6
    279.7
    284.5
    30. 282.5
    272.4
    268.6
    273.9
    270.8
    273.2
    281.4
    280.7
    266.5
    271.9
    40. 285.2 <- Low pressure hot shot?
    287.6 <- Low pressure hot shot?
    42. 301.7 <- Low pressure hot shot
    182 <- Last shot as above

    42 shots, 41 if you consider the 301 compromised
    standard deviation including first low shot and low pressure hot shots: 6.41
    standard deviation between: 4.73-4.96

    Couple low shots blew the curve, I'm gonna blame the paint

    But yeah .. about 40 shots for me on crosman 12 grams. Sweet.
    Relevant Discussion

    Originally posted by russc

    Originally posted by Jubszy
    I just want to add one thing - regged 12g setups are for summer play only. Outside temperature drops below 20 deg.C and whole sweetspotting goes bye-bye, plus dropoffs and frozen regs. Unregged-old valve setup wins here.
    Not necessarily. The valve sweetspot isn't going to change just because of temp changes, but dropoff and frozen regs are definitely a factor. I don't think an unregged setup wins, though...

    Consider that the 2k+ gun I first tested sweetspotted at 240 psi. That means the co2 does not necessarily have to reach its normal pressure of 850 psi. As long as it's somewhere above that 240 psi mark, it'll keep working. I guess it depends on how much pre-reg expansion you have, but let's just assume that the volume before the regulator drops the "fill %" by half, or doubles the volume in the cartridge.



    At freezing point, CO2 will be at 500 psi according to these graphs, until it hits 15% fill. It remains to be seen how much liquid would be shot through the reg and wasted, but you can see that the gun would still function better than your average 12g gun.

    This also applies in the summer where many guns are vapor locked. A 50% fill in the pre-reg volume at 100 degrees F still gives you around 1200 psi. Most guns lock up, but with good fittings the regged setup should work perfectly.
    Originally posted by russc
    Originally posted by paintballnerd
    Ok, so what? To achieve best overall CO2 efficiency AND consistency, we want:

    -2K +/- body/valve ?
    -A reg
    -more volume before reg? or after?
    -Valve spring? (light/medium/hard)
    -Main spring? (light/medium/hard)

    I have recently acquired an older style body, and a newer style body, and I want to have both a nice SC cocker, and an C/A bulk fed one. I would love to tune the 12g one for ultimate 12g usage, but after reading this thread, everything I thought I knew about SC cockers is blown away.

    -A
    paintballnerd, there's no comparison. The regulated LP 12 gram setup simply blows unregged out of the water. Of course, you can't have a simple setup like a changer in the vert adapter. If you want a clean setup you might want to lean towards unregged.


    As for regging 12ies, just sweetspot your gun and go from there. Right now there isn't a whole lot of information out there on LP Sniper 12 gram setups besides what's in this thread.

    I believe you want the lowest sweetspot possible, which depends entirely on your valve and possibly your springs. Having an open face bolt and good valve won't hurt, although we haven't tested a Tornado/Rat valve yet. The lower the pressure, the lower you can shoot into the cartridge and the bigger the difference is between pre and post reg, which should encourage quick regulation. That doesn't mean you should drop your operating pressure for no reason - you want to be running at the highest velocity you can get out of your inline regulator. All other velocity adjustment should be done via mainspring. This will give you the best consistency even when you are shooting quickly.

    If you are going to run the gun off of the sweetspot, you need to run it below the ideal pressure. If you run it above the ideal pressure you will get significant shootup. I don't recommend running at anything other than the sweetspot, though.

    I got the best efficiency out of an open face bolt, stock 2k+ cocker valve, light (stock) springs.

    As for volume, I think you need a certain amount after the regulator but if you can have too much. I dropped a few shots when I added a big pressure tester post-reg. I think the 2k+ gun body has a good amount of room to work with, keep it stock, and avoid putting any big adapters/fittings/testers between the reg and the body.

    Pre-regulator volume. I'm not sure how much is needed, but I know you want to have enough to keep liquid from being sucked through the regulator. Remember, I got my original 45+ shot count with a bottomline with about 5 inches of macro hose.

    Springs. Just throw heavy valve/light main in the gun, sweetspot and see where you stand. If you need to change, do it. You should pretty much just be following the same guide you'd take to set a low pressure Sniper or Cocker up.
    ^^^^^
    Originally posted by TheJudge
    In short: sweet spotting is finding the idea operating pressure (by adjusting the reg) for a given valve/hammer spring combination.

    The Sweet spot is the point where velocity drops if the pressure is both increased or decreased.
    Last edited by RAZRBAKK; 09-29-2021, 07:18 AM.

    #2
    Years later, I think my main takeaways at this point are:

    1. Regulated Snipers run better than any Nelson I've tried - regged or unregged.
    2. Unregged Snipers are like driving a carbureted car. It's simpler, but it can take some tinkering and you're sacrificing performance for style points.
    3. Nelson-valved guns generally run pretty well unregged, and while a regulator gives you more predictable shot drop-off, you won't see a major increase in total shot count.
    4. I try and stuff a regulator into anything I use with 12 grams these days. The pros/cons are one-sided unless you are trying to stay slim or simple.

    Comment


    • RAZRBAKK
      RAZRBAKK commented
      Editing a comment
      Appreciate you putting this whole thing together originally. I'm piecing together an SC setup built around this idea. Excited to test in the Spring.

    #3
    Thanks for putting this all back together in one easy to process post. That thread was like 20+ pages long if I remember correctly.

    Comment


      #4
      This may be an off topic question, but I'm in the process of making a pump action Spyder. I've got my hands on a spring kit so I have some flexibility, but would the tuning process be similar to hit ideal efficiency?

      Comment


      • russc

        russc

        commented
        Editing a comment
        Yep, basically the same valve design.

      #5
      Originally posted by russc View Post
      2. Unregged Snipers are like driving a carbureted car. It's simpler, but it can take some tinkering and you're sacrificing performance for style points.
      😪 Sad but true. It's ok to drive a Model T on occasion, especially when you get a group together. The groups tend to look similar too. 😋
      Feedback

      https://www.mcarterbrown.com/forum/b...der-s-feedback

      Comment


        #6
        Regged sniper will work better... ok. But, pre2k or post2k body for a build?

        Comment


        • Lt. head-shot

          Lt. head-shot

          commented
          Editing a comment
          Based on this line - "2. "dead space" is less significant, if not inconsequential in a regged setup versus an unregged setup where all expansion is avoided." - Either body should be fine. More space in a 2k, but with that being less significant, I would say go 2k for more options/parts

        • Socalpumpballer
          Socalpumpballer commented
          Editing a comment
          2k+ bodies. Pre 2k got less shots
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