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Snipers on 12 grams / on CO2 Discussion

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    #16
    Originally posted by Toestr View Post
    Have you seen this thread by russc ?

    https://www.pbnation.com/showthread....3032401?page=3

    He also concludes that pre2k bodies got better efficiency, but also the additional volume of a pressure tester hurt efficiency, so I'm not too sure what to think. I'm not sure that springing will do anything on a regged Sheridan other than change at what pressure it sweetspots.

    Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
    Maybe that's where I got the idea that the Pre2k was more efficient. He also tests a 99 and gets 36 shots, citing the venturi bolt as a possible cause for efficiency loss.

    He also said:
    The mainspring is weak enough where I can cock it by holding it in one hand and making a punching motion.
    Which both gave me a chuckle and makes me think I need to rethink my springing.

    Originally posted by anson View Post
    Has anyone tried lightening hammer to eliminate bounce?

    RAZRBAKK I wonder if you use a very stiff valve spring if efficiency would go up. I think a lot of air is wasted through valve dwell. Don't give up on that pre 2k body just yet
    I'm definitely not done, just gotta think about it more.

    I have tested now with my 2nd heaviest valve spring + medium main, my heaviest valve spring + medium main, and my 2nd lightest valve spring and a medium main spring.

    I re-sweetspotted the reg each time to be sure, and no matter what I seemed to be very close to lowering the pressure too much, and the valve leaking after every shot, or the FPS dropping because the pressure is slamming the valve shut.

    I'm going to keep messing with it, but I'm out of paint and almost out of 12ies.

    Three things I am going to try:

    medium valve, lighter main spring
    A different co2 compatible reg
    The original valve

    Hopefully not all at the same time so I can get a conclusive answer.

    I will update when I do.

    Comment


    • anson

      anson

      commented
      Editing a comment
      Just saying. My Carter's both have very heavy valve springs. This forces the valve to close very quickly reducing the amount of wasted air

    • anson

      anson

      commented
      Editing a comment
      Also I'm having a hard time understanding how you're sweetspotting the reg? Crank the reg up until velocity drops then back half a turn.

    • RAZRBAKK

      RAZRBAKK

      commented
      Editing a comment
      anson Yeah, I am starting with the IVG turned in about half way, reg turned out.

      I'm turning it up to increase the velocity, until it starts to drop, and then backing it out. The point at which the velocity starts to drop comes very early in this process, which is why I thought maybe a lighter valve spring would work.

      Like I said, I'm going to experiment with springs. I'll probably end up going through all of them at some point. I'm just not sure since I got basically identical results with 3 different spring setups.

    #17
    The Inception valve is advertised as having low dwell because of the stem oring. From what I understand the cupseal is pretty soft though so I don't know if it would be CO2 friendly. The Shocktech Rat and ANS and AC Parts clones also have orings and I think they should be ok with CO2. Just a thought. I know you're not looking at spending more.

    Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

    Comment


    • RAZRBAKK

      RAZRBAKK

      commented
      Editing a comment
      Not against spending more, but I think I should work through my current valves before buying more lol

    #18
    After some quick and dirty testing with 12gs, my Karni and my 2k5 Black Magic seem to get the most shots. Didn’t have time to chrono yet, but Karni was well above all 4 other pumps. It may have been shooting at a lower velocity though. I’ll update with numbers once I can.
    the Karni runs a standard sized valve and the BM runs a 11/16 valve.
    Cuda's Feedback

    Comment


      #19
      So many factors come into play when dealing with 12g efficiency. It’s hard to lock down sold numbers. Over the chrono numbers often never result in real world use. However If your not getting your numbers over a chrono they won’t be accurate. Velocity plays a big part in efficiency numbers.

      Air Temp
      Velocity
      How long you wait between shots
      Paint to bore match
      Paint quality consistency
      Firing over the chrono the same exact way each time
      Position of the 12g
      Even current elevation plays a part


      12g is a small pressure vessel and it’s effected by many factors so it’s difficult to find that sweet spot especially in unregulated Sniper body setups. It’s all in the springs they need to be balanced perfectly. It’s a ton of trial and error to get any decent numbers with a Sniper setup.

      You want High pressure as high as you can get. That valve needs to slam close as fast as you can get it for efficiency. Bore needs to be tight, bolt needs to fit tight or have an Oring keeping pressure going out the barrel and not up the feedneck. You need consistent hardy paint to do this as the small burst of high pressure and a tight bore is hard on paint. Follow up shots need to be delayed allowing the co2 to fully expand. Longer wait time the colder it gets. Brand 12g makes a difference as well.

      I find I get less shots out of the non food grade 12g. Maybe due to the oils weight when getting filled. Or the internals reaction to the 12g oil building up over time. Not sure but I find I get way better consistent performance out of food grade 12g without oil and longer maintenance intervals as the internals stay cleaner longer.


      FYI stock CCM sniper will produce 30 shots @280fps with temps around 60-70* if you shoot it slow. That’s at relatively low operating pressure 350ish and regulated. Those numbers are what I consider my bench mark when messing with 12g powered Snipers. If I can get close to 30 shots real world use I’m happy. Anything past that is splitting hairs over the chrono and has no real world use or is just adjusted to a lower velocity to get more shots.

      Comment


      • RAZRBAKK

        RAZRBAKK

        commented
        Editing a comment
        Murdoc555 I think so, you might have to play with springing a little.

      • Murdoc555
        Murdoc555 commented
        Editing a comment
        RAZRBAKK If I remember right, the basic start point after this is a hard valve and soft hammer spring? Chuck E Ducky

      • Chuck E Ducky

        Chuck E Ducky

        commented
        Editing a comment
        With non regulated your going to want stiff. Get it shooting as hot as possible (stiff springs) with the IVG in the middle of its adjustment. Then back it down till you hit field speed. If you cant get it to go below 300fps go a lil softer. Regulated just get a good balanced spring combo. CCM work great for me.

      #20
      This is about as unscientific as I could get. Since I have a 2k2 VF body now, I decided to bring all the externals over. Same barrel, reg, 12 gram changer. Did not weigh the 12 gram. The paint doesn't match a sphere, let alone the barrel bore.

      1. 264
      272
      252
      283
      265
      269
      279
      294
      272
      262
      271
      270
      264
      276
      261
      268
      269
      268
      286
      264
      274
      240
      297
      269
      25. 252

      26. 209

      Vent.

      25 useable shots. Again.

      How interesting. I'm going to play with it on 12ies tomorrow with different paint, and I will report back with real world data.

      Comment


      • Chuck E Ducky

        Chuck E Ducky

        commented
        Editing a comment
        Looks usable

      • RAZRBAKK

        RAZRBAKK

        commented
        Editing a comment
        Chuck E Ducky It is, but I am hoping to break 30. Next round of testing is going to be finding the peak for both of these guns. Matching bore, good paint, balancing springs, etc.

      • Chuck E Ducky

        Chuck E Ducky

        commented
        Editing a comment
        I think to get 30+ it’s going to have be at a lower velocity. Snipers just aren't that efficient. But I’m interested to see what you come up with.

      #21
      RAZRBAKK any suggestions?

      I was setting my 2k Sniper for SC. I took off the reg and screwed the bucket straight in, it shot amazing. After the 3rd 12ie, air out the back block and through the feed, completely bleeding the 12 gram in a few shots and can't get to velocity. From what I gather, 12 grams need to go through the reg, so I guess that's just how I'll have to set it up, but was curious what you ended up doing with yours.

      Comment


        #22
        Originally posted by Murdoc555 View Post
        RAZRBAKK any suggestions?

        I was setting my 2k Sniper for SC. I took off the reg and screwed the bucket straight in, it shot amazing. After the 3rd 12ie, air out the back block and through the feed, completely bleeding the 12 gram in a few shots and can't get to velocity. From what I gather, 12 grams need to go through the reg, so I guess that's just how I'll have to set it up, but was curious what you ended up doing with yours.
        Mine has a female Palmers Stabilizer that I screw a 12 gram changer into. The reg is sweet spotted, and that's about it.

        Truth be told I need to change some things because my results haven't been fantastic. I'll be doing more experimentation this weekend before it gets too cold.

        Comment


          #23
          Originally posted by Murdoc555 View Post
          RAZRBAKK any suggestions?

          I was setting my 2k Sniper for SC. I took off the reg and screwed the bucket straight in, it shot amazing. After the 3rd 12ie, air out the back block and through the feed, completely bleeding the 12 gram in a few shots and can't get to velocity. From what I gather, 12 grams need to go through the reg, so I guess that's just how I'll have to set it up, but was curious what you ended up doing with yours.
          I’m guessing you blew out your cup seal.

          I will use 12 gr with my S6. I don’t adjust the reg at all. All that I have to do is turn up the velocity a little bit. It shoots about 15-20 fps slower in 12 gr than it does on hpa.

          Comment


          • Murdoc555
            Murdoc555 commented
            Editing a comment
            Cup seals blown even if it holds air when cocked?

          • RAZRBAKK

            RAZRBAKK

            commented
            Editing a comment
            @Murdoch555 you might just have an imbalance in your springing.

          #24

          Comment


            #25
            I’m getting 18 shots out of a 12 g

            Comment


            • RAZRBAKK

              RAZRBAKK

              commented
              Editing a comment
              I don't think CP regs get a long with co2 very well.
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