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    #16
    i look for inherent quietness, a la, the gun is generally quieter than other similar guns regardless which barrel.
    and general efficiency, which lends itself to quietness.

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      #17
      Paint quality (roundness) is most important

      My Phantom is perhaps the best shooter I've ever had....I used it so much for the first few years it's almost an intuitive thing to shoot and hit.
      Many are the times I've used another gun and after coming off the field said "I would have hot more people if I had my Phantom"

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        #18
        I find that I appreciate things more when I work on them. There's something comforting and familiar with picking up something that you have stayed up all night hacking up with a hacksaw. A trust forms when you have painstakingly handpicked every individual piece of something.

        Obviously I want reliability and consistency... and that is what I strive for. It's what I spend my time and effort on. After I get something shooting reliably and consistently, I focus on making it function smoothly. I am not talking about the lack of friction... that is often taken care of by the time you get it working reliably... I am talking about the timing of the mechanisms and the expectations of the shooter aligning.

        If you have ever shot a properly set up 1911 (or probably any pistol that doesn't have a fixed barrel)... there is a point where you have pulled the trigger, the pistol has risen to its the peak of its recoil, and you are leveling the pistol to align it for the next shot. If the pistol is properly timed, then everything locks you on the target exactly when you expect it to. The slide comes home, the barrel locks up, and the pistol is leveled at the target in the same moment. It finishes recoiling as if on command... like you telepathically tell it that you have found your target and it WILL BE READY... and it is.

        If the slide had returned home a fraction of a second sooner, then the barrel would have locked before the pistol was level. You would be expecting to see your target past relatively aligned sights judging from the feedback you get from the machine in your hands. But instead you are staring at the top of the slide, the pistol is still pointed north of the target. The sights aren't aligning because it isn't level. The timing throws off the entire feel of the shot.

        If the slide is late, then you have to stop the pistol when it is still in motion. You still have the momentum to deal with when you want to be aiming. You have to wait for the pistol. You can feel the disconnect between the pistol and your own expectations.

        I don't have any experience with mech Autocockers, but I imagine that they are similar.

        I can't stand cookie-cutter spaceguns. Sure, they are amazingly refined and need very little help in order to perform. They have no soul. Oh, cool grip kit, just like everyone else has. You replaced your "engine"...? I bet that took you all night figuring out what tools you needed to make it fit. No? It took 30 seconds and required no tools? Wow, I bet you're proud of yourself. You must have a real sense of accomplishment with that there spacegun.
        If you need to talk, I will listen. Leave a message and I will call you back as soon as I get it.
        IGY6; 503.995.0257

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        • OpusX

          OpusX

          commented
          Editing a comment
          Cockers are mechanical nervana. When you build it for yourself you reach a Velcor-esk enlightenment.

        #19
        to me, its the little things.
        The trigger should be in one of 2 states; on or off.
        you pull the trigger and the marker shoots.

        think of an older spyder and a standard light switch. theres travel from one position to the other before there is a result.
        compare that to a modern marker with a micro switch.

        the other thing is the movement. it should only be in 2 directions; forward and back. No lateral movement.

        weight and ergonomics are the other. playing recball, ive never run out of air; even with the old spyders, so efficiency isnt that big of a deal for me. But it has to fit my hands well. Again, think of the older spyders with the double triggers. the bottom of the guard was right where one of my fingers wanted to be. i hated that

        last thing would probably be material quality and build quality.
        BE Stingray II vs kingman spyder vs Bob Long GZ
        IIRC these were all around near the same time but the spyder had a "nicer" shot than the Stingray, and the GZ had a "nicer" shot than the spyder.

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          #20
          Already been mentioned, but "an extension of self" sums it up. When muscle memory takes over and you're not thinking "is something going to break or stop working?". Ergonomics plays into this too. I'm one of those freaks who needs a stretched out set up. Playing only pump these days, and I don't need a fancy CCM marker for a quality feel. This current rig has a special feel to it, kind of just happened. Lug doesn't need specific adjustment, bolt clears feedneck perfectly, pump/pull trigger/pump rhythm is spot on and quick (no autotrigger). All of that makes a real good shooter for me. OH and trigger pull. I love slider frames, buuut it can't have any grindy feel or stiffness. Thank glob for roller sears.

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            #21
            Certain markers just seem to 'point' better. You don't even need to aim.

            Shortly after I got my phantom I was at a pump group meetup (those guys were too damn good, I couldn't compete) I wound up doing some 1v1's with Toybox. We'd either trade off sna shots or we'd move in such a way that we completely lost track of each other. I liked the times when we lost each other most because often enough we'd spot each other at about the same time and neither of us would miss.

            Also love my Ego7. Field I worked at for a while (now defunct) had a rope that hung down from the ceiling about 1/2 way down the speedball field. Walking on I could usually hit the rope with my first shot, even 1 handed.

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              #22
              Ball on ball is what I'm into. Good paint is most of it, and a quality barrel helps too.

              Comment


                #23
                shot quality i define as the amount of "felt" recoil when you shoot one ball at a time, and the amount of "felt" recoil when shooting fast.
                some guns, 1 shot at a time, shoots great, lay on the trigger, and you feel the barrel start to pickup (mag platform is a good example of that)
                some guns, 1 balling the kick is enough for you to notice it. but when you lay on the trigger it "settles down" and is easier to control (my personal opinion of the insight)
                and then there's those rare cases of certain years and certain setups that can do both well. its not exclusive to spools vs popits either (at least not for me), there are several of both types, for varying reasons.

                and then there's is the aforementioned tank height and general ergonomic items mentioned and those definitely play a factor, myself, i find i prefer the barrel to have a higher axis than some of the newer crop of blast-em cannons, more like a cocker in the barrel height to the top of the frame,

                we're all talking about same thing, i call it aiming by "feel", look at what you want to hit, raise the gun, shoot, and hit that target without ever taking your eyes off it, you dont close an eye to aim, you dont need to think about it, you just do it and the ball goes right where you wanted it to. its magic

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                  #24
                  Yeah, muscle memory is key for me, too.

                  I've cycled back to my first guns, essentially, and the couple times a year I play, the difference is noticeable. A Phantom with a .45 always points dead on target, even more so with a stock feed. I grabbed a Sentinel after a long time (several years) and wanted to try a new valve design; it was accurate to the limits of the paint from the first trigger pull. And my classic Macdev electros, if they ever see the field, point the same as in college.

                  I'd hate to think what I could still do with an Illusion. That's the only gun I've ever shot better than a Phantom, and probably the only gun I can claim to have made incredible shots with. The 45 platform, the pump handle... everything was located perfectly, but there was that closed- bolt "stillness" to the shot that the Sentinel won't ever have.

                  I'm a pretty mediocre player most days, but familiarity leads to consistency, and not missing the easy shot is just as important as making the incredible shot.

                  Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

                  Comment


                    #25
                    Originally posted by Tracker View Post
                    and then there's is the aforementioned tank height and general ergonomic items mentioned and those definitely play a factor, myself, i find i prefer the barrel to have a higher axis than some of the newer crop of blast-em cannons, more like a cocker in the barrel height to the top of the frame,
                    Same here. For some reason I just can't shoot the newer spools like the CS1/2 very well. Feels like I have to lift the gun absurdly far up to get it in front of my eye. Stacked tubes feel much better and point more naturally. The LV1/1.1/1.5/1.6 is the pinnacle for me ergonomically. Even tried a G6R and as much as I wanted to like it they are just too short front to rear and it seems like too far rear biased in weight. Ironically I shoot my old DM3 great but it's tall so it gets a pass as a "stacked tube".

                    The shot quality again depends on the person. There is a mechanical element to it that I've noticed lately that I can't get past. In addition to the "speed" "finality" or "urgency" of the shot (ie: dwell time) there's a springy quality that the CS/Geo guns have that is really irritating. The Matrices (before the M3) have a much snappier shot without that weird bloopy sproingey thing the gamma core bolts have. I really just hate the way they feel. Like a toy gun going off, almost like a nerf gun shooting. The LV has a sort of mechanical feel to it but without the spring. Almost closer to a really well tuned Eblade 'cocker feel mainly from the lever actuation being part of the shot noise except without the duration of a 'cocker shot, just much faster but you can tell there is lever things happening. The matrices don't have that, just a straight clean shot; no drama, no weirdness. Balanced spools are definitely the most neutral of shots with really no decisive character and I love that to some extent. Especially when it's 12-15bps that characterless bullet hose is pretty dope.

                    Long winded but the shorter version is that aside from the duration there's a mechanical element to the shot signature that can't be dismissed.

                    Comment


                      #26
                      Originally posted by gabe View Post

                      that weird bloopy sproingey thing the gamma core bolts have.
                      I've been trying to come up with a way to describe how these shoot and never came this close. A true wordsmith.

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                      • OpusX

                        OpusX

                        commented
                        Editing a comment
                        It is simply "pew". My emek actually makes a "pew" noise...its surreal.

                      #27
                      The perfect shot is when you pull the trigger and everything happens as it should. The feeling of the mechanics of the marker cycling expectantly, the ball flying in a predictable path, and the explosion of the ball hitting the target.

                      A marker that you can feel cycling just straight brings joy to my day. With that said as amazing as the GTek is when I got to shoot one, and it is an amazing shooter, there was basically zero shot feedback, a perfect puff of paint at the smallest movement of the finger. It was almost boring.

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                      • DavidBoren

                        DavidBoren

                        commented
                        Editing a comment
                        I sold an AR-50 because it was boring to shoot... among other reasons. Like Marvin the Martian... there was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Ka-Boom. But it was so soft and gentle that it wasn't what I was expecting. I know, complaining that the muzzle brake is TOO efficient. Lol.

                        But sometimes you need something to operate how you think it should... even if your opinion isn't actually relevant to the operation of the mechanism.

                        I am the same way about AR-15's. Something about them doesn't sit right with me. The very mechanism, itself, insults my sensibilities. Hand me an M1A or an M249, even, and I settle into my groove. I reach an understanding with the tool in my hands, and we can get down to business.

                        Give me a bolt gun, and I am in my element. I can achieve a natural state of Zen... just me and my rifle. Now we can dance.

                        For paintball, something about a centerfeed STBB just does me right. I know how to hold them. They point well and true for my form. The report and feel of the mechanism comforts me.

                      • XEMON

                        XEMON

                        commented
                        Editing a comment
                        This is why i love my SSR so much, it just feels right ...

                        When switching to semi, the Vector and ATS are by far my favorite ... teh Nelson train with extensive mechanical system feels so nice.
                        The vector has one of the best trigger feel i ever shot, defiantly going to remain in the "collection/pile" for a very long time.

                        Mechanic that feel good can also be extremely reliable and do exactly what you expect when you expect, again, the Vector comes to mind. Shoot ball on ball every time ...

                      #28
                      Quality paint + ergonomics + practice. When they all line up, it's spot on.

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