.690 nelson paint - we want it, we can get it we just have to work together ...

[Chuck E Ducky]

Only issue I have with pink fill is it can stain like a MF. Anyone that has played ICC knows this. Anything white is now pink after washing my gear. Pink stands out great but I don’t like paint for rec that stains. I personally prefer a bright shell so I can track it. At the same time so can everyone else. I just feel I loose more then they do with with a dark shell. But I honestly will buy whatever these are just my preferences.

You could always do a poll when we get close. I think proving the concept a larger ball will still sell and sell well is more important then the color anyway. I know I’m in for two cases. But if it’s good I will buy it regularly for my stock class markers because I know a larger ball shoots better.

[Drcemento]

Thanks Siress,
I was hoping to see you around here.
also nice to see some qualifying data to back up what i always held true - those bigger balls reached out and touched people! I can remember countless times in that period where paint started getting smaller and cheaper and guys unleashing a wall of paint at me at long range and just seeing them fall short and go every which way. 3-4 shots from my trusty cocker at 280 with some of that big GAP paint in it and I would ring that dudes bell. I got allot of "that guys shooting hot" or "check his gun" and "why do i smell like bananas!?"

To update everyone,
I will admit to a week ups and downs with allot of "what did i get myself into's" and allot looking into how to pull this off. - IE a platform where I can set up to take pre-orders

I think nelson is up to the task - I've shot about 500 + rounds in my backyard target range through my cocker, sniper, 3 automags and 2 phantoms. it is every bit as good if not better than Valken graffiti in my opinion. I've also not broken a single ball!

I do need to follow up with Nelson about the spec. I do worry a little about getting the size range just right and really hope they can help with some old manufacturing data.

things have plateaued here in this thread at around 43 cases (thats a conservative count) I have some interest from a paint distributor here in norcal to carry it but he's going to want it at a wholesale price - which is ok since I would not have to ship it and I would break even.

that said I think I may sign the PO and put a deposit down to give this thing a shot it the arm. with that leap of faith I'd have 6 weeks to presell and a deposited order in hand to instill some confidence in people pre-ordering.

the only other catch is timing - we are heading into winter - not a big deal here in cali but definitely not an ideal time for paint sales! on the other hand if we can prove nelson can make the stuff of our dreams and build some steam over winter and get a bigger order in for the playing season....

please let me know your thoughts and post here if you would like to be in on it! it really helps.

FYI the anarchy I got is orange pearlescent with orange fill - nice stuff. I do like pink though...
will ask about the black shell as many have commented on it here.

[Siress]

Bro.

This is my jam. I'm in for a case. If I had any time to play, I'd be in for more.

1) My vote goes for the old Upheaval combo; pink fill with pearlescent shell.
2) Check this out for paint quality metrics and discussion therein.

[un2xs]

Yes. And neon green fill.

Personally, I had no problems following my shots. Its the guy on the other end I want to have problems spotting the origination spot.

Our field owner got some in to try... we all liked it in his woodsball field. After that he always had some on hand until it was no longer made.

Different strokes, I guess.

[Chuck E Ducky]

The stuff I have from Pro Shar is larger in size and noticeably heavier. Like just holding it in you hand you can tell so is a substantial amount more weight to it. I have heard complaints that there ball is very small. Maybe I just got a good batch I did get it from an NXL event Vs buying it from a proshop. It is a very fragile paint I can see it giving issues on markers that are harder on paint.

I agree and think Graffiti is the best all round paint it shoots even better as it gets colder and a lil more brittle. But works in a lot of different temperature conditions and in a lot of different harder shooting markers. A large bore graffiti would be the perfect paint I think. Especially with the idea of older markers in mind that may not be the softest on paint.

Anyone remember the white box/ heat crap they use to sell for practice paint. That stuff was terrible so inconsistent hard as a rock and filled with mostly air and some weird chalky like fill. If you had a pod of that paint and a pod of say Marbleizer (before they went to crap) or All Star it was noticeable the weight difference.

From my experience the heavy paint flys the best and shoots most accurately. I think because it’s got less air in the ball and more fill.

[Drcemento]

thanks chuck.

i do wonder about the airspace - it makes sense for the curveball argument, however my understanding of paint manufacturing is that the ball size is controlled by the fill amount, so unless tournament balls are bigger I don't know how they would somehow fill them fuller?

Proshar is a good ball, however I do not prefer them due to their brittleness and insanely small size. they do not work well at all in a mag or heavy hitting older guns

[Drcemento]

I should qualify that those caliper numbers DO NOT translate to what freak insert or barrel works best. based on the blow test a .684 insert worked the best.

[russc]

I know it wasn't their paint, but is there an option for something like Gater Black? For the youngins, black shell with neon green fill. Hard to see where its shot from and hard to insta-wipe.

If we're going for a custom run, I would absolutely love to have something like this with black shell!

As far as *why* you'd want big paint, a huge advantage besides working with older guns, is marginally longer range and accuracy. Going from .680 to .690 should result in about 4.5% more mass, which means you get 4.5% more impact energy with the same velocity, and 4.5% more inertial resistance to perturbing forces in flight.

If I could get paint consistently in the .685 range, it wouldn't be worth it, but I've been getting paint sizing as small as the high .670's, so bumping to .690 should actually be a noticeable difference.

[russc]

I kid you not, when I was a ref we occasionally randomly ended up shooting red fill Nelson at North Shore Paintball in Vancouver.

[MrBarraclough]

Doing the Lord's work, here. Thanks for that.

I'm surprised that the Nelson didn't measure out larger. I haven't taken calipers to the Nelson Ranger that I get locally, but when I bought a .685 barrel back in February I ended up sending it back because it was way too tight. I would've blown my eardrums out trying to blow Ranger through it; had to use a squeegee to ramrod it back out the breech. Ranger will blow through (but not fall/roll through) my .689 barrels without too much effort but will fall right through a stock Automag barrel, which I think is either a .692 or .695.

I'm not surprised by the 0.01 difference between equitorial and polar diameters. I've noticed that sometimes Ranger will look a little oblate, a little fatter at the seam than the poles. Not by a huge amount, but next to something really spherical you can kinda see it (or at least convince yourself you do). Some batches look more spherical than others, at least to my eye. Too bad I shot or gave away to renters on my team all the Ranger I had on hand Saturday. I can get some more in a couple of weeks and see what the calipers say.

I recall a pretty rigorous set of barrel tests that was posted as a long thread on PBnation some years ago. I think the guy who did the testing was an engineering undergrad who did it as a project for school. He wasn't testing bore diameter specifically, as I recall, but more comparing different brands and their advertised gimmicks like different porting patterns or rifling or whatever. I think this may have been before freak kits made bore diameter the focus of most barrel debates. So while his data unfortunately didn't test that particular variable, his setup and methodology could be instructive. As I type this from memory, I think the range was 70' and I know it was done indoors and from a marker in bench vise. What I thought was really clever was that instead of shooting at a small target and recording hit/miss, his target was something like 2'x2' or 4'x4' and divided into a grid of 1" or 2" squares. Each hit was plotted on the grid as x,y coordinates. Those numerical values could be dumped into a spreadsheet and analyzed to yield actual quantifiable comparisons. He could determine the center of the grouping by taking the mean or the median values on each axis and then quantify how tight or loose the grouping was in relation to that center. Since each group was evaluated relative to its own center, changes in the point of aim from swapping the barrels or having to set up and take down the marker between test sessions could not introduce error.

[Chuck E Ducky]

I think Graffiti is a good bar but others experience may vary. I feel like paint can be very location dependent. I get decent quality Graffiti. It’s usually my go to. My Local proshop MSG paintball is carrying it and it’s pretty consistent in quality but we are literally 40min north of the port they ship it to so it’s not traveling far after it’s pulled from the shipping container. Don’t know if it’s that or the fact my proshop stores it in perfect conditions and it’s rotated regularly. They also sell a lot of paint so it’s always fresh. It don’t sit long so it’s about as fresh as we are going to get it.

Pro Shar is what I shoot at events for Tournament play and often has great results however the paint is made specifically for events so it fresh and super round bursting at the seams full. Like literally I had a case that got to warm in the car and they were literally splitting at the seams they were so full. It was a noticeably heavier ball. Flew super straight and broke on everything it had no air in the ball. I still have a case I’m rotating but it’s just to cold now in the NE to shoot it now. (It’s brittle and seems to store well as long as you don’t let it get to hot) but it’s got to be warm enough to shoot it. So the conditions have to be just right but when they are there is nothing like good paint.

Heavy paintballs fly straighter and break easily. A larger ball will naturally fly better just due to its weight. The less air it has in the ball the straighter it will fly. That’s why tournament paint purchased at events flys so well they are filled to the brim with paint and temperature controlled. It effects shelf life filling them like that. The stuff they ship to suppliers they don’t seem to fill as much as the stuff the send to events like NXL.

I think a larger ball is going to naturally shoot better just due to the extra weight of the ball. As long as the ball is filled decently and not just a bigger shell with the same amount of fill.

On a side note I always shake up my paint in the bag when I get it. It mixes up the fill and air balancing the ball better people will look at yah odd sometimes but it makes a noticeable difference especially with paint that has been sitting a while. Air is going to go to the top heavily parts of fill settle to the bottom making it heavy on one side of the ball. Shaking up a bag really helps mix all that up. It’s more noticeable with a pump and limited paint style play, because your watching each shot more. You get a lot less of those shots that curve off as the ball starts to slow down.

[MrBarraclough]

Man do I miss the old magenta/gold shelled Marbelizer from the late 90s.

[MrBarraclough]

As I commented to Drcemento higher up the thread, Gator Black was kind of fun on a shady field if you mixed a little bright yellow RPS into your hopper. It gave you the occasional tracer round.

And the bronze shell of Nelson Ranger seems to be a nice compromise. Not too hard to see from the shooter's perspective looking along the flight path, even in the shade, but in the woods it is very hard to see in flight by anyone who isn't looking pretty close to parallel to the flight path.

[Drcemento]

After an excruciating week of watching fedex meander around california with my paint I finally got the case of Anarchy!
I'll get into details about how i tested this later - I can get long winded.
In short - I'd consider it good paint. not blow my mind better but very very similar if not slightly better than Valken Graffiti which I also have a case of and consider it to be the highest quality paint i can get right now (without knowing nelson was an option ) I have gone to Graffiti since I stopped being able to get GAP many years ago, I almost always regret buying anything else.

that said:
what is great paint?
thats where things get murky.
I've been playing paintball on and off since 1994 or 1995
I have great memories of nelson paint but no quantifiable data to back that up - i wish like hell I did now.

to that end this is how I tested the 3 paints i have on hand to start to quantify things - Anarchy, Nelson and Proshar
I measured the diameter of 20 balls of each with calipers at 3 points - 2 along the "equator" (seem) and one at the "poles" - in relation to the "equator". the results are interesting and a good indicator of size and roundness

Valken Graffitti averages:
equator 1: 0.678 equator 2: 0.678 poles: 0.662

Nelson Averages:
equator 1: 0.674 equator 2: 0.675 poles: 0.665

Proshar averages:
equator 1: 0.668 equator 2: 0.667 poles: 0.661

by that standard proshar is the roundest with a .006 difference in diameter on average at the poles from the seems and nelson second with 0.01 and valken with 0.016

accuracy.
I shot 20 rounds of valken and Nelson through an autococker running a 0.689 brass palmer barrel with wedgits at a 10" round target at 45 and 62 feet all at around 280 fps
Nelson was 16 out of 20 at 45' ' and 14 out of 20 at 62' Valken was 14 out of 20 @ 45' and 9 out of 20 @ 62'

while by no means definitive - i want to try more guns and barrels, I enjoyed shooting the Nelson allot - when they hit the target the group was tighter. of the ones that missed 2-3 really veered wildly off target.

I hope this helps. I'm confident Nelson can give us a good product - i'd be really stoked If I had that quality in a larger bore ball. is it what it used to be? was paint better back then? hard to know for sure - we tend to exaggerate these things in our heads. has anyone done tests like this back in the day?

is Graffitti a good bar to set these days?

I'm willing to order up a couple more boxes of other brands and run the numbers for a larger data set - anyone else is welcome to help with paint they have on their hands.

time to zone out on some TV

[Handy]

I'd be interested in 2-4 cases of high quality paint. If it proved to be good our fields here are pretty much all BYOP, so I'm sure I could get a few more interested parties.

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