Well done to our very own IronyUSA on his next marker design release:
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Looks good.
I'm a little surprised that Dye haven't brought out mech versions of any of their markers. As I was scrolling I was fully expecting to see the mech frame option! -
It's coming but is a few months out - expect it to be excellent and unique.Originally posted by vijil View PostComment
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Ah, yes I see it now. https://www.facebook.com/DyePaintbal...91804125643934
And dang, that livestreaming setup, literally a phone in a mount that makes your ears bleed every time Billy gets a text. Ech.
The only thing I don't like about mech is the batteries in the hoppers. To me it's like, if I'm running batteries anyway...
The primo isn't quite there, there needs to be some kind of PALS type system that works standard across brands.Comment
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According to Billy Wing's FB Livestream the electronics from the UL frame will fit into the single trigger mech frame if you so desire. I know my fellow MCBer's can appreciate that.Comment
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I did a little trolling on FB and the Dye fanbois assure me this is nothing like a 170R wrapped in a Force body. Sure looks like it though.
The bolt is apparently super different and new. Guess Dye is happy cannibalizing M3s sales so sell more of their mid level guns.Comment
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Milkstache John (IronyUSA) helped design both the gammacore and this bolt. The SP bolt (X, TM40 & AMP) is a clone/copy of the gammacore. -
ChuckLove Oh I'm aware. I meant it more for someone to use as a troll comment if someone wants to cause trouble.
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Glad to see someone finally went after the shot feel aspect vs pure speed, but i can say for sure that the mech version needs some love after watching Billy try to get on it. I really hope they put this in the hands of someone that shoots a mech alot before they release these. I'd love to test one of these if given the chance.
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I buy Automags and Mag Parts also.Comment
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I thought IronyUSA was out of the paintball engineering business?
"Just When I Thought I Was Out, They Pull Me Back In!"
The DSR is the one platform I am ashamed to admit I have not tried out yet. Really interested to see how this goes.Comment
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John went back to work for Dye last year, and he's planning on staying there unless he's pushed out the door. I don't foresee that happening so it's probably time to get used to Dye doing some actual cool, unique, innovative things.
I have a feeling their next release will blow some minds, especially the technical nerds on MCB.
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Gabe, I saw your comments and it's clear that you're not well versed in the fundamental concepts involved in pneumatic circuitry - when you don't know what you're talking about, it's either best to be quiet or ask someone to kindly explain things. And no, you weren't trolling - you literally said stupid things that made no sense and were then corrected. You stated that you believe this is a copy of the Gamma and when that was corrected, you said "So if I said IV core then would that be more accurate?" You were actually closer the first time. And before I explain to you how the Gamma and ARC differ, I'd also ask why this is news to you? The original DSR came out almost exactly 4 (!!!) years ago - same bolt system, same concepts used, it was all covered then.Originally posted by gabe View Post
Allow me to help explain:
The DSR bolt (ARC) reset is handled in the same fashion the Gamma's is (chamber-supplied air spring) but the bolt forward event is different.
The DSR solenoid "fills to fire" - in other words, when the solenoid is commanded to switch, it pulls a small chunk of volume from the shot chamber and redirects it to the set of holes at the back of the can (between the two outer seals). Just an FYI, when it switches, it also shuts off the supply to the shot chamber simultaneously.
In order for the ARC's chamber-supplied air spring to reset the bolt to its rearward position, the dwell time has to expire. Thus, while the Gamma and ARC share some DNA, the ARC is not a totally self-timing system. This right here is a perfect example of illustrating that dwell insensitivity and self-timing are not design features that necessarily accompany each other - a dwell-insensitive system isn't necessarily self-timing, but I can't think of a self-timing system that isn't dwell-insensitive. In the Gamma, the main firing valve feeds the bolt guide, which in turn feeds the bolt. Once the shot chamber pressure drops enough for the valve spring to become the dominant forward-acting force, the valve shuts, cutting flow to the guide and bolt, and allowing the chamber-supplied air spring to become the dominant rearward-acting force on the bolt.
The solenoid in the ARC and Gamma play different roles - in the Gamma, the solenoid does a very simple, singular task - it vents the small chamber behind the switch that's offsetting the shot chamber in order to keep the system "primed." Once that single event occurs, the rest of the events are completely handled by the shot chamber, energy transfer and surface areas. Thus, it's probably the most perfect mechanically-actuatable spool system possible. The DSR solenoid is directly responsible for selectively filling the chamber AND for handling the bolt firing duty. The DSR and Torque actually function very, very similarly to each other if you just map out the concepts and the overall sequence of events.
Hopefully that helps you understand the differences between the Gamma and the ARC. I'm not sure why you think your ignorant comments are funny enough to continue to repeat (they're not and are actually kind of embarrassing), but you should also know a few things about the engineer behind the DSR/ARC, M3/FL-21 and, partially, the Gamma Core. The initial idea behind the Gamma Core was derived from a discussion between Jack Wood (PE) and John Chambers long before he ever worked for Dye, and Jack will tell you that himself. So, if anyone had the "free reign" to copy the Gamma Core, it would be John - but he didn't, and Jack will also tell you that.
I'm an engineer, as well - and as one, I'll tell you that copying unique ideas is heavily frowned upon within that community. Good engineers that are worth their weight *DO NOT* do that. I've known Jack, John and a few other excellent engineers in this industry for years, and I can tell you without a doubt that John is one of the brightest people I've ever known, whether it be for his work inside or outside of this industry. You may not care, but check this video on the M3 out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFnxa4SqBMk&t=2s
I worked with the guy that runs that Youtube channel (a damn good channel if you like technical content) on that video to ensure it was all correctly illustrated and explained - a couple of the concepts in the M3, the design of which belongs to John, have never been used in paintball - the chamber-sensing valve and the entire solenoid function are unique to the industry. I recommend you watch that video and *learn.*
Now, would you like me to explain to you how systems like the IV Core differ from the ARC and Gamma, as well?Last edited by imped4now; 09-15-2021, 03:57 PM.Comment
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Hah, I can think of a few other folks in PB who come off with that condescending attitude (particularly over on Simon's forum...), but *never* have I seen one back down graciously. Much respect.
I come at things from an end user, non technical perspective. If a marker uses roughly the same amount of air, shoots the ball when I pull the trigger and requires about the same level of maintenance and $, then the engineering is irrelevant. Even if the internals used literal teleportation to beam the ball into the breach instead of a feedneck, it wouldn't mean squat to me.
Dye and PE's magfed offerings, half pint carbon tanks, mech swappable frames, these are all "innovation" that I can understand.
It seems most drivetrain engineering is about trying to design something functional without getting sued. Maybe that's why nobody has made a faraday bolt yet. -
ATBen:
IV - the solenoid plays the role of an air sear, so it vents to fire upon receiving the PCB's signal (FYI, the vent rate is controlled by the SFR - the faster it vents, the faster the bolt is allowed to come forward). Once that occurs, the shot chamber acting forward on the entire rear surface area of the bolt, including the sail seal surface area, becomes the dominant force, thus the bolt goes forward. Once the rear exit ports in the bolt break the valve seal, the shot chamber is allowed to begin to vent so that it can access the ball. As the shot chamber pressure drops and the breech-sensing valve "eats" some of the air fighting the valve's ability to close and sends it down the sensing passage to actually provide an additive closing force, the valve spring is able to become dominant to shift the valve forward and close off the shot chamber - this traps 30-40 psi in the shot chamber to use for the next shot. Once the dwell time expires, the solenoid switches flow and re-energizes the air sear to reset the bolt to its home position.
I explained the ARC and Gamma above. The IV differs in that it's the only system that uses an air sear out of the 3 - the ARC solenoid "sort of" does the same thing, but from the other side of the bolt (fills to fire) and the Gamma solenoid doesn't interact with the bolt or valve at all. They use a chamber-supplied air spring to return the bolt.Last edited by imped4now; 09-17-2021, 07:00 AM.
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I have a different outlook than vijil does on knowing how internals function. First, I will admit I am not an engineer so qualified analysis is appreciated. Second, I can appreciate the work that goes into the engineering. More importantly, I appreciate quality, simplicity, and the longevity that often follows quality and simplicity. I still use my Automags because their quality production and simple operation mean they still work with minimal maintenance. With that in mind, I do like to hear about some of the engineering aspects before making purchase decisions so I have at least some idea of whether a design will hold up to use and not require a lot of maintenance.Comment
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Sure, but I don't need to know *why* it's so reliable in order to play PB. As a rule features don't drive sales, benefits do. Depending of course on how educated your market is.
I absolutely appreciate the skill and design that goes into the underlying tech of a marker in terms of the drivetrain and etc., but not in a "I understand it" sense, more of a "I don't have the time or the interest to learn about this, but it's awesome" sense. I take my cue on what to buy from people like you.
I'm a big picture guy, so I'm on the macro side. Big picture corporate strategy is my role at work and the way I tick. Details are not for me any more than I need to know them to understand the big picture. That's partly just my personality, but it's also what drives sales, so that's why I do marketing strat. The question that makes the big $$ is not "how does it work", it's "how does this improve my life".
But, of course, the "how does it work" has to be there in order for the "improves my life" to work, so I'm very careful to listen to the detail oriented people I work with.
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I like the look of this new DSR and I have held the original and the frame has a great feel to it. I was surprised by the price but knowing that it will eventually have a mech frame makes it even that much more desirable, and justifies the price in my mind. I may have to pick one up once the first wave of buyers get them and decide to resell it.
Thanks to Imped and others for the technical details. I'm not an engineer but as a geek, I like knowing what goes into a product and why it's important. I'm also glad to see that John is back to designing for Dye again, I didn't know he had gone back.-------------
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Love the nerd energy in here. And as a fellow geek and tinkerer (read - not engineer or tech) I still want to shoot the damn thing. Mech seems to be a smart move too, and timely.
So hopefully this brings dye back into the fold with a great mid level shooter that's great on any field.
At the very least, I've learned way more than anyone needs to know about the various core options, what with trendy acronyms and all, so thanks. That's the reason I joined MCB way back in 07. Seems like not much has changed #SPSucks. Pepperidge Farms remembers.
I'm also hoping this means a crop of used M3s start showing up with that classic Dye depreciation.
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Very fitting video for this particular discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGExLXSby7Q&t=246sComment
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Dye just released a video of a prototype mech frame for this on BookFace.
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