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Old 12-13-2010, 12:18 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Anyone other than me (hpa tank rant)...

ever held a pin valve open on a 4500-68 fiber tank to the point of total emptying and enjoyed how cold the valve gets? We're talking frost forming on it kind of cold. Especially humourous given how it was actually 1C/34F outside at the time. I pulled the tank off my gun and the pin valve was leaking, and this is a repeat problem with my Ninja fiber tank (only a month old too) and so far its up to three things I don't like about it. The clearcoat finish they use on it chips really easy also (i found that out my first game with it), the aforementioned pin valve which often won't close properly is the second thing and then there's what happens when you go to refill it after a total and rapid empty.

The burst disc blows on it when pressurizing it back up again. I was watching the gauge on the fill station and when it got to 3k on its gauge (which is more precise than the one on the tank), the 1.8k disc on the tank blew. Also there's a rattle coming from inside the regulator assembly now that I don't recall being there before. Really, other than the fill nipple speeding tank fills at the field (since it can be done with the gun still attached to the tank) I haven't yet figured out yet why I bothered with compressed air.

Its certainly not temperature proof, as anyone who's watched the tank pressure change between filled at room temperature and then stored overnight below freezing in a car (which is enough to drop a 68 ci tank more than 500psi) or has held the tank valve open to completely purge it (and thus frosted over the regulator) can attest to. And if its not an amazing regulator on the tank, the consistency shot to shot varies just as much, if not more so than with a co2 tank.
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:25 AM   #2 (permalink)
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From my understanding the rattling noise is a regular phenomenon and occurs when the tank is not adequately filled (I may be confusing this with the Myth regulators).

If your regulator is venting air from the valve when the pin is not depressed there is an issue with it. I would contact Ninja and explain the problem, it should be covered under warranty seeing as you purchased it a month ago.

The clearcoat finish would be expected to scratch and show wear with use in my opinion, it is after all a clear coat. I would suggest a tank cover perhaps.

In addition regarding temperature changes; pressure and volume are related to temperature. The 3 are inter related and a shift of one will change the others.
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Old 12-13-2010, 03:10 AM   #3 (permalink)
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What temperature you filled it at has less to with the pressure drop than does the Temperature of HP compressed air during a fill. The reason it drops (usually in the tune of 10%avg) is because the act of filling the tank superheats the air in the tank, once it cools the temperature is stabilized. This is common to all compressed air tanks ... we used to hot fill by 10% when filling Dive tanks, to have a cooled fill of 2900-3000psi.

Was the rattle there when the tank was empty? if so that is just the check valve as there is no pressure present to lock it closed.

as mentioned ... with a fibrewrap tank ... use of a covered is all but mandatory, but really as long as the fibre is intact it's just a coating.

considering the pin valve issue you should contact the manufacturer (ninja) as that is what the whole warranty thing is all about.
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Old 12-13-2010, 03:38 AM   #4 (permalink)
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And people tell me my PE regs suck...
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Old 12-13-2010, 03:54 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I have had no complaints with either of my crossfire regs. Not sure if they fail in the situation you describe however the coldest temp I have played and used them at was in Pensacola last year and it was around 10 degrees and everything else was leaking and having problems other than them.
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Old 12-13-2010, 04:14 AM   #6 (permalink)
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You need to call ninja, at the very least you're getting a free valve,

and yes, cf tanks need a tank cover, damn tank costs 160 bucks but a damn 20 dollar tank cover and benefit at the better grip you'll have on the tank.
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Old 12-13-2010, 10:24 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Ninja by far has one of the better customer services. Give em a call.....
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Old 12-13-2010, 10:25 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeEight View Post
ever held a pin valve open on a 4500-68 fiber tank to the point of total emptying and enjoyed how cold the valve gets? We're talking frost forming on it kind of cold. Especially humourous given how it was actually 1C/34F outside at the time.
That's not humorous. That is science. When you fill a tank it gets hot when you empty it gets cold. That is the transfer of energy.

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Originally Posted by DeeEight View Post
I pulled the tank off my gun and the pin valve was leaking, and this is a repeat problem with my Ninja fiber tank (only a month old too) and so far its up to three things I don't like about it. The clearcoat finish they use on it chips really easy also (i found that out my first game with it)
If you dont put a tank cover on it it will scratch/chip. Anno will scratch if you are not careful with it.

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Originally Posted by DeeEight View Post
Ninja pin valve problems
You probably froze the oring when emptying it that quickly.

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Originally Posted by DeeEight View Post
The burst disc blows on it when pressurizing it back up again. I was watching the gauge on the fill station and when it got to 3k on its gauge (which is more precise than the one on the tank), the 1.8k disc on the tank blew.
Don't be surprised if both gauges are not accurate. Were you filling a 3k tank or a 4.5k tank? if you were filling a 3k you could have over filled it.

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Originally Posted by DeeEight View Post
Also there's a rattle coming from inside the regulator assembly now that I don't recall being there before.
If your tank does not have air in it it will rattle. That is your fill valve rattling around. Once air is on it it is held in place.

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Originally Posted by DeeEight View Post
Really, other than the fill nipple speeding tank fills at the field (since it can be done with the gun still attached to the tank) I haven't yet figured out yet why I bothered with compressed air.
The main benifits to HPA are consistant velocities, and the ability to use it on high quality markers that do not do well when they use CO2 at high ROF.

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Originally Posted by DeeEight View Post
Its certainly not temperature proof, as anyone who's watched the tank pressure change between filled at room temperature and then stored overnight below freezing in a car (which is enough to drop a 68 ci tank more than 500psi)
All gasses react to temperature change. Just a simple fact of life. If you dont like it I would suggest designing a battery powered paintball marker.


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Originally Posted by DeeEight View Post
or has held the tank valve open to completely purge it (and thus frosted over the regulator) can attest to.
Again science. losing energy causes a temperature drop.

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Originally Posted by DeeEight View Post
And if its not an amazing regulator on the tank, the consistency shot to shot varies just as much, if not more so than with a co2 tank.
Highly unlikely. You have to buy crap regs to get CO2 performance. Even then if you have a good reg on your marker it will prevent from shooting velocity spikes.
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:42 PM   #9 (permalink)
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That's not humorous. That is science. When you fill a tank it gets hot when you empty it gets cold. That is the transfer of energy.
I'm aware of the filling making it hot, you're compressing air into a pressure vessel. But getting colder than a co2 tank when emptying, considering the air inside was already a GAS and not a liquid as co2 is stored as, shouldn't have required robbing heat energy out of the tank to expel it.


Quote:
If you dont put a tank cover on it it will scratch/chip. Anno will scratch if you are not careful with it.
I've got lots of experience with carbon fiber in sports and this is the worst clearcoat I've ever seen given how fragile and easily chipped it is.


Quote:
Don't be surprised if both gauges are not accurate. Were you filling a 3k tank or a 4.5k tank? if you were filling a 3k you could have over filled it.
First sentence of my post I identified the tank.

Quote:
If your tank does not have air in it it will rattle. That is your fill valve rattling around. Once air is on it it is held in place.
When I bought the tank and it was empty, there was no rattle. The last time it was empty 2 weeks ago, there was no rattle. Now there is a rattle. I would not have complained about something that was there from the beginning.

Quote:
Highly unlikely. You have to buy crap regs to get CO2 performance. Even then if you have a good reg on your marker it will prevent from shooting velocity spikes.
Yes, and I don't think Ninja regs are that good obviously. As the saying goes, you get what you paid for and Ninja regs are less than half the price of say, CP regs.
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:56 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeEight View Post
I'm aware of the filling making it hot, you're compressing air into a pressure vessel. But getting colder than a co2 tank when emptying, considering the air inside was already a GAS and not a liquid as co2 is stored as, shouldn't have required robbing heat energy out of the tank to expel it.
when you compress, you create heat, when you de-compress, the opposite fact is true. you'll also find that expelling CO2 the same way will create a considerable amount more 'frost', and, it will begin to cover the entire bottle as opposed to the reg with HPA. There is nothing here that is unusual, or abnormal.
As for the fill nipple rattle, even 1 psi above ambient (~14.7 psi), will hold it closed enough not to rattle. There is also the consideration of o-ring wear. the nipple seals on the inside of the o-ring, if the outside wears enough to be loose, there will be no loss of functionality, but there will be a rattle. go ahead, try almost any other empty tank (unless it has a small spring to close the nipple (I doubt any do these days - not needed)
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