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Old 05-09-2013, 10:11 AM   #31 (permalink)
The Man With No Plan
 
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i was a Virtue Clock, I do...

but i know multiple teams that have been screwed because of them.
#1 Ptown Pumpers at HB 2012 (months after the VC was dropped)
Team chronos on a big red, team hits field, ref's check everybody with a VC and everybody is shooting 20-30fps high, rechrono to VC, big red says 20-30 less.
they didnt make it to finals, so they went to SC Village the next day... everybody was shooting at the big red speed of 265 not 295 like the VC said

#2 personal team (young gun and 2 d5 teams) event in feb 2013, chrono to big reds, shooting +/-3 with our tricked out ions, +/-7 with the old beat up egos

VC on the field said we were anywhere from 200/400 fps, and have a 50fps flux between shots

one of my YG's (shootin an etek2 bone stock) was clocked at 18bps by the VC, big red said 14bps, board was set to 14.5 instead of 12.5 (so yes he was shootin fast, but big red was correct, not VC)

before the day was over, the VC battery died, and all of our problems were solved


i want one
the features are sweet
but im hesitant
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:36 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I totally hear you. Even assuming that all of the chrono's involved were used correctly (correct batteries, proper barrel placement, clear range, etc), I would still hesitate before placing the blame on the Virtue.

The big red chrono seems to have a bulletproof reputation. On what basis? If it's the official chrono for a competition then by all means one should chrono their gun against it but, that doesn't mean it's any more accurate (or properly placed).

Here are some things folks have to accept- all chronographs have an associated inaccuracy. When used properly, optical Chrono's are the best, radar-based models are always less accurate.

XRadar USA made the Big Red Chrono everyone seems to swear by. They no longer make that model and instead have introduced three different models:
  • X-Radar Deluxe (gray brick) +/- 1% for $79.95
  • Chrono Station (Red Rectangle) +/- 1% for $289.95
  • Field Radar for (Gray brick in a blue frame) +/-1% $241.95

Sports Sensors Inc. produces two paintball radar chronos:
  • Paintball RADARchron (little yellow handheld) with +/- 2% accuracy for $94.95
  • Paintball RADARChron ROF (white brick with yellow accents) +/- 1% accuracy for $146.95

Virtue produces two paintball radar chronos:
Clock (black pistol shape) +/- ?% for $184.95
Clock Field Edition (black pistol shape in curved black mount) +/- ?% for $299.95
They don't publish specs so, I've emailed them and I will update here when I get a response.

A 1% error means one could expect nearly +/- 3FPS swings of FPS even if the actual FPS was rock solid with no deviation.

For example, in 2008 conducted a test of the Paintball RADARChron ROF against a ballistic optical chronograph found FPS errors as high as 7% over a ten shot string but, the average error worked out to -.25%, well within the manufacturer's specifications.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson Death View Post
First strike rounds punish lazy people. Don't be lazy and you won't have problems with first strikes.

Last edited by uv_halo; 05-09-2013 at 06:26 PM. Reason: Update from XRADAR
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:43 PM   #33 (permalink)
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i found the majority of the problem was placement and user error

ref has is crooked or against the barrel randomly, not paying attention, and then gets mad at you for trying to fix it (bad ref, wet nasty day, everyone wanted to go home)

big reds are considered "industry standard" and they are a great starting point as basis of comparison

yes the accuracy involved can create issues, i understand that
but when 1 chrono says your +/- 3fps (and ball on ball accurate) and you walk 100 yards (dont change anything) and your now +/- 50 and 50 or 75 fps higher.... there is a problem.

i was using 2 different chrono's all day, it was rough...
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:35 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by super_stanchy View Post
i found the majority of the problem was placement and user error

ref has is crooked or against the barrel randomly, not paying attention, and then gets mad at you for trying to fix it (bad ref, wet nasty day, everyone wanted to go home)

big reds are considered "industry standard" and they are a great starting point as basis of comparison

yes the accuracy involved can create issues, i understand that
but when 1 chrono says your +/- 3fps (and ball on ball accurate) and you walk 100 yards (dont change anything) and your now +/- 50 and 50 or 75 fps higher.... there is a problem.

i was using 2 different chrono's all day, it was rough...
My educated guess (based on knowledge of their basic principles, and the average performance level of all all, models that publish specs) is that the problems you cited were most likely attributable to operator error. Consider this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJOttawa View Post
...We were using an EXCELLENT Radarchron ROF model today to prep two Dukie DSP markers for field use.

This model of radar has a stand that lets it sit on a flat surface.
We had it sitting on concrete and we thought nothing of it.

We spent about 8 hours today test firing over the chrono getting erratic, nonsensical readings ranging from 150fps to 400+ fps.

How the latter was possible without the marker exploding should have been a clue.

We tried dozens of parts combinations including reassembling a bone stock Phantom again with no consistency.

I suggested we put it on a tripod just for ease of use - a bit higher, less awkward.

Tripod installed and bam - all the readings changed - more stable and much higher....
We've always placed the chrono on a table, four feet from the ground so this never came up...
I'm really hoping that Virtue and XRadar USA provide me with specs. My guess, based on price and features, would be that Virtue's clock is a +/- 2% spec.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson Death View Post
First strike rounds punish lazy people. Don't be lazy and you won't have problems with first strikes.
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:12 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uv_halo View Post
My educated guess (based on knowledge of their basic principles, and the average performance level of all all, models that publish specs) is that the problems you cited were most likely attributable to operator error. Consider this:



I'm really hoping that Virtue and XRadar USA provide me with specs. My guess, based on price and features, would be that Virtue's clock is a +/- 2% spec.
very plausible that it was user error
but when your fighting with a ref to hold the chrono right, and get penalties, or have to rush to find a allen wrench it messes with ya mentally before you go play your point/match

i assume the VC is very high quality, but for whatever reason, it has been hard to get a consistent reading out of it (much more so than my little white or yellow handhelds, or the table mounted big reds)

my guns seem to chrono consistently and normally over all chronos, except the VC
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:30 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Just got word from XRadar so, I've updated it's accuracy "All three radar models are about +/-1% if the user follows the instructions"

So now, it's up to Virtue. They're already closed for the day and, I've not heard from them yet so, I will call them tomorrow.
__________________
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson Death View Post
First strike rounds punish lazy people. Don't be lazy and you won't have problems with first strikes.
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:54 PM   #37 (permalink)
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A few pennies of wisdom from working with 3 different optical chronos, the VC and the XRadad gray field chrono...

We noticed that the VC and our optical chrono don't match. As I am more likely to believe an optical, I assumed it to be correct... Then we began testing optical chronos against each other... There were 30 fps differences between optical chronos!

Needless to say, it is an annoying situation.

I would suggest that at the next event where the refs are using the VC and the chrono station is something else, consider asking the ref to chrono a ball with both simultaneously. This will *SHOW* them is there is a difference between their chronos.

Ty
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:01 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Also, why did Virtue stop making this?
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:38 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by super_stanchy View Post
very plausible that it was user error
but when your fighting with a ref to hold the chrono right, and get penalties, or have to rush to find a allen wrench it messes with ya mentally before you go play your point/match

i assume the VC is very high quality, but for whatever reason, it has been hard to get a consistent reading out of it (much more so than my little white or yellow handhelds, or the table mounted big reds)

my guns seem to chrono consistently and normally over all chronos, except the VC
I'd hesitate before assuming the VC is quality. Given the features and the price point, it may very well be that they skimped on the radar associated components.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tymcneer View Post
A few pennies of wisdom from working with 3 different optical chronos, the VC and the XRadad gray field chrono...

We noticed that the VC and our optical chrono don't match. As I am more likely to believe an optical, I assumed it to be correct... Then we began testing optical chronos against each other... There were 30 fps differences between optical chronos!

Needless to say, it is an annoying situation.

I would suggest that at the next event where the refs are using the VC and the chrono station is something else, consider asking the ref to chrono a ball with both simultaneously. This will *SHOW* them is there is a difference between their chronos.

Ty
I can't be certain but, I'd suspect quality differences between optical chronos at varying price points, and conditions of use (i.e. proper lighting, and chrono conditions (i.e. damaged, etc)).

Quote:
Originally Posted by boo View Post
Also, why did Virtue stop making this?
What makes you think they stopped making it? I've never seen it mentioned on their website (before, or when I bought mine last year). All the Virtue electronics that ANSGear lists are either out of stock or on significant sale prices so, it may be that ANSGear doesn't want to carry their stuff anymore.
__________________
FN303SD Totmacher 13 | SP 'Woodstalker' Ion | 1989 Line SI Bushmaster SI Deluxe
First Strike Round Field Listing | External Ballistics, FSRs and PBs | My Feedback
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson Death View Post
First strike rounds punish lazy people. Don't be lazy and you won't have problems with first strikes.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:38 PM   #40 (permalink)
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I couldn't agree more, regarding the optical units... We need to get a day to simply test all the chronos...

BTW, like the avatar modification you did

Ty
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