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-   -   Redux/VKC Duck and Retro 7 owners: Stock class pistol recommendation needed! (https://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/ask-experts/219925-redux-vkc-duck-retro-7-owners-stock-class-pistol-recommendation-needed.html)

Manning 11-30-2012 11:25 AM

Redux/VKC Duck and Retro 7 owners: Stock class pistol recommendation needed!
 
I'm on the cusp of my next marker purchase and was considering a Redux. I've been doing my homework and read several reviews and have since changed my mind. I am however interested in the new VKC ducks since this model seems to have solved the pinching issues that plagued the Redux. I am also interested in a Retro 7 and would be slapping a magnum kit on that if I decided to go that route.

A little about me:
I've played stock class off and on for about 4 years and having been playing paintball since 92. The stock class markers I have owned have been; phantom, multiple PGPs, a PUG, and a Super Stocker.

I'd love to hear from folks that have owned a redux, retro 7, and a micro phantom - but if you've owned at least two of these please answer this question:

If you had to choose between a VKC Duck, Retro 7, or a micro-phantom, which would you get now and why?

If the VKC Duck eliminates the pinching problem of the Redux, is it the champ? Does the Retro 7 equal or best it in terms of performance, coolness, and upgradability? Or for the cost, am I better off just building a fully upgraded micro-phantom and just save monies??

Any input is much appreciated.

heinous 11-30-2012 11:29 AM

if you want one that just works and would be your workhorse, stock class phantom would be your best bet. none of your mentioned choices had decades to iron out the kinks.

but judging by your mentioned choices you are more interested in a status symbol, in which case you really should just get whichever appeals to you.

i've got the retro and tried a phantom, for some reason i can't get used to the over-barrel pump of the phantom. it just feels awkward, but that's just personal preference. you've used it yourself and are considering another so it probably isn't an issue for you.

Manning 11-30-2012 11:33 AM

I'll admit I do favor the uniqueness and craftsmanship of the higher end markers.

heinous 11-30-2012 11:35 AM

lol then get the one you like! and if you still can't decide, then see which one can ship the soonest :p

heinous 11-30-2012 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJOttawa (Post 2548710)
Retro7 is my #1 choice.

I have enough money I could by all three. I only own the R7 at this point.

Reasons:
Can be used without the (as yet unbuilt) slide.
Cocker threaded barrels
Cocking handle doesn't interfere with line of sight.
Gas-transfer system is the biggest leap in Nelson valve design in, well, ever.
Player-friendly accessories (mag changer etc)
Off the shelf parts. (Phantom internals, CCI seals can be used throughout)

You can use the R7 as a pistol or add a longer barrel and various gizmos to make it feel more like a Phantom. You can't really pistolize a Phantom.

The VKC duck probably fixes the chopping issue of the gen 1 Redux. It still has the liquid-siphoning problem in the valve.

I won't get into any more details here; I've posted ad nauseum in the Redux, CCI and Avratech sections.

does dukie's frame fit phantoms? he might be able to build one that way and it would be a true stock class gun while still in pistol form, all the while giving it the touch of exoticism that he seeks.

from my (limited) experience his bucket changer does come loose if you aren't careful. i'm thinking if it would do some good to have a kind of reverse wraparound grips so your palm doesn't apply friction directly on the bucket, lowering its chance to loosen... but it's not a huge problem regardless.

comfy as hell though, that frame.

Manning 11-30-2012 11:52 AM

Well it's more than just what I like.

I've had several PPS squalls but actually prefer my humble SA-17 to them. I paid between 350-600 for each squall and bought the 17 for $75 shipped NIB. I've since sold all the squalls and still have the 17. It's an unregulated spring fed pistol, just like the squall, but gets more shots from a 12g and I can change barrels on it so it will stay with me.

I would love to own a hand crafted duck, but not if I spend the day fixing it, or cleaning busted paint from it, instead of playing with it. I definitely appreciate having a conversation piece in my hands before I hit the field, but I want it to do its job when I need it on the field. Nothing is more frustrating than having an expensive paintball blender in your hands and having to walk off the field.

I also am looking for performance. Stock class demands a higher level of accuracy and playability from the marker in my opinion.

Manning 11-30-2012 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJOttawa (Post 2548710)
Retro7 is my #1 choice.

I have enough money I could by all three. I only own the R7 at this point.

Reasons:
Can be used without the (as yet unbuilt) slide.
Cocker threaded barrels
Cocking handle doesn't interfere with line of sight.
Gas-transfer system is the biggest leap in Nelson valve design in, well, ever.
Player-friendly accessories (mag changer etc)
Off the shelf parts. (Phantom internals, CCI seals can be used throughout)

You can use the R7 as a pistol or add a longer barrel and various gizmos to make it feel more like a Phantom. You can't really pistolize a Phantom.

The VKC duck probably fixes the chopping issue of the gen 1 Redux. It still has the liquid-siphoning problem in the valve.

I won't get into any more details here; I've posted ad nauseum in the Redux, CCI and Avratech sections.

Great points. Thanks for this.

heinous 11-30-2012 11:58 AM

the most reliable way to avoid an "expensive paintball blender" is to get rid of the expensive. just saying. i mean look at you, even you did it by keeping the sa17.

maybe you can get some custom phantom parts and build one to your liking, then when you change your mind and want a retro you can just swap those upgrades to it since it is mostly phantom compatible?

toymachine 11-30-2012 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heinous (Post 2548714)
does dukie's frame fit phantoms? he might be able to build one that way and it would be a true stock class gun while still in pistol form, all the while giving it the touch of exoticism that he seeks.

from my (limited) experience his bucket changer does come loose if you aren't careful. i'm thinking if it would do some good to have a kind of reverse wraparound grips so your palm doesn't apply friction directly on the bucket, lowering its chance to loosen... but it's not a huge problem regardless.

comfy as hell though, that frame.

not sure if that was a rhetorical question, but yes they do.

never actually played with one on a phantom, but my buddy up north raves and raves about it. He used lots of plumbers tape (and when I mean he used lots of mean exactly that - the guy is a little dyslexic - in the sense he's a genius w/o social skills) when installing the changer's adapter and hasn't ever seemed to have any problems, from what I hear at least.

heinous 11-30-2012 12:01 PM

no i was really wondering lol, i only tried it out as a whole gun.

toymachine 11-30-2012 12:03 PM

yea, you got it. only thing you need to make it work is a modified valve body. if this guy can do it in an hour and a half with a drill press, anyone can (with access to a drill press :p). pretty sure dukie will do it for you for cheap iirc when you buy the trigger frame/changer

Jebus 11-30-2012 12:04 PM

I had an R7, ordering another one to be used as my primary along with a Duck. The redux I have that has been modded by CJ shoots great, and the only reason I'm selling it is because of the Duck hopefully being shipped next week. I think I'll sell my boxgun too, it just sits there on my wall wanting to be played with, but after getting an R7 - I don't think I ever will play with it.

Get an R7 with all the goodies - you won't regret it! The Redux and VKC are great guns, don't get me wrong!

dm6rocker 11-30-2012 01:13 PM

I think my vote has to go with the Retro 7 too. I have one already, and a Gen3 paid for with a full slide kit and mag changer. I think that will be the ultimate SC marker for "Duck Aficionados" given the way they're designed.

Out of the Redux, VKC duck, and Kamikaze Duck, the Redux has always been my favorite. Once i did the anti-pinch mod on the slide, it's been one of the few guns I have that has never let me down. I get solid efficiency out of it, it shoots where I point it, and it just looks good.

The Kamikaze Shooter was my dream gun, and has become a bit of a wallhanger. I still bring it out once in a while, but I'm very selective about it. Usually only on low key walkon days, or games where there's a good amount of fellow MCB'ers.

The VKC Duck is the black sheep. I want to love it. I want it to be the best of the three. It simply does not pinch. I pulled 30 shots out with the standard short barrel. It's two tone dust/polished finish is beautiful. But the biggest flaw with it is the snub underneath the slide. The slot that the bolt latch goes through is milled too long, and presents some issues when you air it up. If you're careful, delicate, and precise, it's not an issue. But when you're getting shot at by three people with Egos, it's a problem. The slide can travel too far back, and pop the valve open when you pump it. I've sent paint downrange several times just pumping the thing. But, I won't get too into it because it irks me and I can rant about it all day.

Bottom line/TL;DR - Retro 7. Especially with the slide kit. I think it's going to be the best of the bunch.

toymachine 11-30-2012 01:26 PM

God, reading this thread, can't ****ing wait to get a retro 7... I also had been planning to get a duck and had even began setting something up with a nice lady from cm, but that will have to wait for later. Plus, at this stage in life, 3k on a paintball gun is something I have a hard time justifying. One day, one day soon, but first this :)

mikeds80 12-02-2012 10:53 PM

I haven't tried the others but I do really enjoy my retro. It's a nice balance of classy looks and function. It's a well thought out and simple gun. It's definitely a players gun more than a wall hanger but if you want fancy cloths you can also get a magnum kit.

Manning 12-02-2012 11:17 PM

This is my plan...

sniper97 12-02-2012 11:39 PM

I have 2 phantoms and an R7.

The R7 has a really nice (short, crisp, light) trigger pull. Points extremely well. Really a great design, in grip 12 gram changer (this option is not cheap on any paintball marker), slide in 10 rd tubes, cocker threaded barrel.

With the price of the R7, it is really hard (impossible IMHO) to justify the price of a Duck or Redux.

Also, CJ know his stuff!

ApoC_101 12-03-2012 02:33 PM

I'm basically going to agree with you on that... I think it's possible to do a good job of implementing a slider trigger in a Nelson based pistol design, but I thought it should be possible to make an even better hinge trigger instead... the Retro's trigger is the result of that experiment, I consider it to be a fairly successful result. The trigger to frame/grip line geometry is very close to that of the sliding trigger most of these guns aim to mimic (that of the 1911), and it accomplishes basically the ideal trigger action (which many slider triggers struggle to get right, even after tuning). Additionally, it does it with the minimal number of parts and refined, simple geometry (this I also like).

PS, very awesome to hear so many of you appreciate the performance value of the Retro 7, I'm very glad it's up to all of our demanding standards for both a reliable players gun and an enthusiasts platform. It greatly encourages my goals to continue the improvement of the product line and expand it further with more variety :thumbup:

Jackson 12-03-2012 02:43 PM

Preaching to the choir, but the Retro 7's 12 gram in-grip setup and gas transfer system make it the best on gas. I know CJ and others have mentioned it hear and elsewhere, but the Redux has a major flaw in how the air enters the valve. The pierce pin sits right at the cup seal, causing liquid to be dumped with every shot. The Retro not only has the gas enter at the rear of the valve, but the magic nipple keeps the recharge rate slow to basically eliminate liquid in the valve. Right out of the box, I was getting nearly 40 shots.

The Retro might not have the style points of the Redux (though the Magnum slide should help with that), but the performance can't be beat. The trigger is light, short, and crisp. Absolutely a dream. The trigger frame is phenominal. Everyone that has shot mine has noted how well the gun points. The angles/curves... flawless. The gun balances perfectly. The freak bored barrel is a great balance of looks and size (small enough to keep the pistol look and feel, yet long enough for good efficiency).

The gun is designed all over to be a player's gun. ApoC's insight into every detail is pretty evident. I've tried looking for something I would change in the design, and I just can't find anything (once I swapped out the teflon pierce pin seal for a modified CCI cup seal).

PB Weasel 12-03-2012 04:33 PM

I'm bias toward the redux, it works for me with little issue. And with a whoosh it is shear magic on the field. But again, I'm bias.

Feyd 12-03-2012 05:15 PM

Duck slide, that is all! Feyd...............

Jebus 12-04-2012 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApoC_101 (Post 2551447)
I'm basically going to agree with you on that... I think it's possible to do a good job of implementing a slider trigger in a Nelson based pistol design, but I thought it should be possible to make an even better hinge trigger instead... the Retro's trigger is the result of that experiment, I consider it to be a fairly successful result. The trigger to frame/grip line geometry is very close to that of the sliding trigger most of these guns aim to mimic (that of the 1911), and it accomplishes basically the ideal trigger action (which many slider triggers struggle to get right, even after tuning). Additionally, it does it with the minimal number of parts and refined, simple geometry (this I also like).

PS, very awesome to hear so many of you appreciate the performance value of the Retro 7, I'm very glad it's up to all of our demanding standards for both a reliable players gun and an enthusiasts platform. It greatly encourages my goals to continue the improvement of the product line and expand it further with more variety :thumbup:


I didn't read everything you wrote, but did I read Double Barrel R7 correctly in the future??

toymachine 12-04-2012 10:15 AM

This might be blasphemous, but has anyone ever though about having carter (or whomever) build a duck (or redux) with the R7's trigger frame and magic nipple into it? Just a though

Jebus 12-04-2012 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toymachine (Post 2552261)
This might be blasphemous, but has anyone ever though about having carter (or whomever) build a duck (or redux) with the R7's trigger frame and magic nipple into it? Just a though

Box7?

https://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/...sterboxgun.jpg


Unless it is a center feed don't think the feeds would line up - the Boxgun would technacally work, would just need to widen the slide slot to fit, but eyeballing it, seemed to line up well!


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