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Old 03-24-2017, 02:37 PM   #21 (permalink)
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You will find a lot of discussions related to efficiency and 12-grams on MCB. The most important fact regarding CO2 that many don't seem to understand or know about is that CO2 pressure is determined by temperature. You can have a full 20oz. tank and the pressure will be approximately 960 psi at 80. Obviously, a 20oz tank has a lot more volume than a 12-gram, right? Guess what the pressure of a 12-gram will be at 80? Answer: around 960 psi. The size of the vessel that holds CO2 is irrelevant when it comes to determining pressure.

Here is a chart to illustrate how CO2 works:
co2.jpg

If a larger/longer air system is used in conjunction with a CO2 vessel, then you can see from the chart what the pressure will be by guestimating how much lower the percentage of rated fill will be. On a stock-class set up, it really shouldn't be that much - maybe a couple of shots. It's not like anyone is using a remote hose and expansion chamber. Look at the chart... Note that the pressure remains the same if the vessel is filled to 100% capacity all the way down to 40% capacity (at 80) and drops off from there.

I've done a lot of testing and have found that paint quality and paint-to-bore match affect efficiency far more than any additional volume in the air system. Note that my testing was with the Nelson/Phantom platform, but the basic principal remains the same.
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Old 03-24-2017, 02:48 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Slim have you done any testing with Sheridan platforms? I know you're 99% Nelson but...
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Old 03-24-2017, 03:02 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Slim have you done any testing with Sheridan platforms? I know you're 99% Nelson but...
Nope, 100% Nelson. I'm not a Sheridan guy.

It's also important to remember, and I've stated this in other threads, that the results you get at a chrono will differ from the results you get during game play. No matter what the platform you use, you're not going to be firing your gun the same way on the field as you do at the chrono. On the field you may take 4 shots, then it could be two to three minutes before you shoot again. Or you could rapid fire 20 shots in short succession. At the chrono you usually shoot in a steady, timed succession. Rapid firing a gun chills down the entire system. When the system chills down, the CO2 pressure decreases and efficiency is lost. There are many other factors why chrono results will differ from actual game results, but this is the big one.
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Old 03-24-2017, 03:12 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Nope, 100% Nelson. I'm not a Sheridan guy.
Damn I'm the opposite, I wish I liked Nelsons
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Old 03-24-2017, 03:14 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Hey Slim, thanks for contributing! I saw that chart on russc's thread, but thank you for bringing it here with a great explanation.

I usually play in temperatures from 70-85 or so, so I can expect the CO2 pressure to be anywhere from 850-950+ psi, good to know! The only reason I was saying why the size of the vessel effects pressure is because for a 12ie versus 3.5oz tank, the % of rated fill on the 20th, 30th, etc shot will be very different. So when comparing 12ie velocity curves against 3.5/4/20oz tank curves, we should just look for trends in shots of the last 25-40% of the rated fill (depending on temperature) rather than directly comparing number of shots that drop off, or by how much. am I getting that right?

I feel like it is safe to say that for most unregulated sniper setups, the good paint to bore match is easy to achieve compared to getting internals set up to handle that pressure drop off in the second half of the 12ie.

People use Phantoms from hot California to the cold rockies, so what about the CCI setup is able to handle such a wide range of pressures with no more adjustment than that of the mainspring tension? any thoughts?
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Old 03-24-2017, 03:18 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by pancake View Post
Again, I'm aware of the success of regulated setups but that is not what I am going for.

Side thought - does the travel of the valve stem play a big role in shot to shot consistency? Does the flange on the CCI valve stem physically restrict travel of the valve stem or does it not bottom out? What I'm getting at is that maybe chopping an eighth inch or so off of the Palmer's valve stem would reduce variation in valve stem travel distance enough to reduce the effects of pressure change, or even effects of mainspring pushing on the valve
Hard to tell for sure. I would imagine on setups that have an overpowering main spring and weak valve spring it would, but I can't see that shooting at a usable velocity. I can say that I have never noticed any signs of it hitting there in any of the guns I have owned or fixed.

Another thing you don't want to discount. Because there aren't enough already. Barrel. Having a good barrel length and match will make a world of difference.
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Old 03-24-2017, 03:28 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pancake View Post
People use Phantoms from hot California to the cold rockies, so what about the CCI setup is able to handle such a wide range of pressures with no more adjustment than that of the mainspring tension? any thoughts?
Probably the valve volume and shooting 3 or 4 shots per second compared to 7 shots per second with an HPA setup.
But any pump gun on CO2 can be used in any temperature or playing field

It might be hard to believe but if you are nearer the coastline you have to adjust the velocity up in order for the paintball to fight its way through the humidity when airborne (hot or cold humidity). This of course means fewer shots

Since moving to Pittsburgh from New England my shots increased from 32 to 36 with a Phantom
And I hear people wherever they are can attain up to 39 shots, and where Mike at CCI said where he is he could expect 20 shots for some reason. Maybe he wasn't matching his paintballs right?

Last edited by Pittsburgh Stinkbugs; 03-24-2017 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 03-24-2017, 03:35 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I spent a few years getting hung up on 12-gram efficiency. I went through 5 times more CO2s at the chrono than on the field. I tested every spring configuration there is. Mike from CCI even sent me a batch of springs from his test spring pile. I tested back bottle vs. VSC, vs. bottom line vs. drop out. I tested in freezing cold weather to 90 days. I tested different barrels and barrel lengths. Porting vs. un-ported. Polished internals vs. factory. Lightened hammers vs. factory. All that and more. All that time, money and effort to eventually realize that the pursuit of the ultimate 12-gram efficiency is nothing more than a fools errand.

Because after all, once your on the field none of it matters. Either you got them or they got you. Is the fact that you saved a whole 50 cents on a 12 gram during the process really that important?
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Old 03-24-2017, 03:50 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim View Post
Nope, 100% Nelson. I'm not a Sheridan guy.

It's also important to remember, and I've stated this in other threads, that the results you get at a chrono will differ from the results you get during game play. No matter what the platform you use, you're not going to be firing your gun the same way on the field as you do at the chrono. On the field you may take 4 shots, then it could be two to three minutes before you shoot again. Or you could rapid fire 20 shots in short succession. At the chrono you usually shoot in a steady, timed succession. Rapid firing a gun chills down the entire system. When the system chills down, the CO2 pressure decreases and efficiency is lost. There are many other factors why chrono results will differ from actual game results, but this is the big one.

Great point Slim, this is definitely something that can not be overlooked. We've been all physics so far but cant forget our chemistry!
Stinkbug, how fast were you shooting your setup when you got your 10fps drop per shot?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim View Post
I spent a few years getting hung up on 12-gram efficiency. I went through 5 times more CO2s at the chrono than on the field. I tested every spring configuration there is. Mike from CCI even sent me a batch of springs from his test spring pile. I tested back bottle vs. VSC, vs. bottom line vs. drop out. I tested in freezing cold weather to 90 days. I tested different barrels and barrel lengths. Porting vs. un-ported. Polished internals vs. factory. Lightened hammers vs. factory. All that and more. All that time, money and effort to eventually realize that the pursuit of the ultimate 12-gram efficiency is nothing more than a fools errand.

Because after all, once your on the field none of it matters. Either you got them or they got you. Is the fact that you saved a whole 50 cents on a 12 gram during the process really that important?
I see what you mean, but I am just hoping to better understand the setups in order to find one that will result in usable velocity (260-285) without spiking at the end too much (295 or so as opposed to 350) while keeping in mind factors on efficiency to not blindly lose out on extra possible shots
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Last edited by pancake; 03-24-2017 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 03-24-2017, 04:06 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I don't get any shots drop from shooting too fast. I shoot at the guy, and if I miss I follow it with a fast second shot. I always shoot and re-adjust super fast on the second shot. If neither hit then I move closer or move to get another angle

Going by memory, I'll illustrate roughly what I get with a Phantom:

1st shot 310 or 320 or something
270-280 for about 27 shots, with some random lowball harmless duds and low 255-260 velocity shots thrown in (probably 3 of those for no good reason)
6 or 7 shots after the 27 or 28 shots the velocity gets to 250 and down as low as 190 and makes a venting sound, and the last shot is just the rest of the air vents out

Last edited by Pittsburgh Stinkbugs; 03-24-2017 at 04:12 PM.
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