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Old 03-23-2017, 02:39 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Stock class setups

I'm just trying to wrap my head around traits of a good stock class setup and how that could be applied to a 2K+ unregulated setup.

Volume - less volume seems to be necessary for efficiency and good number of shots per 12ie. (Low volume in phantoms, other nelsons, and pre2k cockers)

Air passage - pre2K cookers and phantoms have a bottleneck in the air flow that are rather small. I assume that this reduces flow to some degree, and can make for a flatter velocity curve

Springs - stiffer springs needed for opening/closing valve at those higher pressures


At high pressure, is the valve dwell less of a factor on velocity than the bottleneck to restrict air flow? I have an AIM crow, cci changer in the VASA, Palmer's LT HP valve, red maddmann springs, stock hammer, and a mad customs devolumizer that I have not installed. The bolt is a shocking supafly that some have said is too much flow.

Right now without the devolumizer I get well over 20 shots from 260 spiking to 290 then 300+ for the last few before drop-off. I'm trying to convince myself why the devolumizer will solve everything, but I know nothing's that easy.

Is the weight of the hammer of any significance in these poppet systems with changing pressures? I just assumed that the mass/force/momentum would end up being within a negligible difference of each other but have heard of success with 40g hammers (is stock 32g?)

I'm really just curious what about markers like the phantom make them so successful on unregulated CO2. They are low volume, have stiff springs, the valve stem has the tiny air passage holes.

There is a phantom Gif that makes the valve body look pretty hollow, is that an accurate depiction of that space? What I am wondering is whether or not it is beneficial to have some volume immediately available to flow through the valve.
https://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/anim...antom_meph.gif

I believe that with the power of MCB we can make an end-all to sniper on 12g threads rather than have a dozen with different setups that kind of work once you wade through the suggestions to use a regulator.

Let me know your thoughts!
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Old 03-23-2017, 03:32 PM   #2 (permalink)
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https://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/p...iscussion.html

Here's a pretty good thread with lots of info.
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Old 03-24-2017, 02:19 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Sweet thread, thank you for the information!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3022 View Post

- from my experiences, the biggest problem with tunning Stock Class marker for efficiency, without regulator and X-chamber, is to stay surely below 300 fps with first shoots and be hight with last shoots, when the liqiud will dilute (thin up) and then when the pressure will slope down, stepwise, with consuming CO2 with previous shoots. With different valve dwell seting, it will be possible shoot with the gun even on the there lower pressures, but practically, you can not change the valve dwell during the shooting... But you can use the reg. Bassically, the reg will make small CA gun from SC gun. Regulation trought vaporization of liquid will be replaced with mechanical preesure regulation like in HPA system. This is imho the main asset from reg - you can create pressure stability in valve chamber in long term during shooting, spread out the power from powerlet in time and flatten out the curve. From this reason, are my guns (so far - without regs) commonly most efficient with thier first ten shoots set very hight (~290 fps).
between this guys' summary and trends in the velocity data on that thread, depending on how the reg is sweetspotted, the regulated setups run at consistent velocities until pressure has been depleted to below operating pressure--at which point they vent down the barrel or barely get a last shot off. On the other hand it seems that, for unregulated setups, they start at a pressure higher than what the 'sweetspot' would be for the spring combo and shoot hot towards the end.

What I take out of this is that the depleting pressure of a 12ie makes a consistent unregulated setup from start to finish an unreasonable expectation. For now the goal will be to keep the final shots from spiking more than 15-20bps over 2 or so balls before it vents by increasing valve spring tension with washers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by russc View Post
Someone ought to make a Phantom valve/powertube/hammer combo for LP.

Increasing the diameter of the sealing face, along with a wider, higher flowing power tube and a hammer bored out and made heavier to accomodate would give a lower valve sweetspot, allowing for more volume to pass while also reducing or eliminating valve "pop" when cocking.
earlier in the thread he talks about what would be good for a low pressure phantom, so I tried to think backwards from this. Air passages will be narrowed but I'd love to find some more fluid dynamics related information that would help find traits of a better setup.

I know it seems trivial / common sense so far, just trying to keep track of these thoughts and hopefully get input on whether they are accurate or incorrect.

Thanks again for sharing the link, 17 more pages to read through. (ended up being mostly commentary with some data).
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Last edited by pancake; 03-24-2017 at 03:05 AM.
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Old 03-24-2017, 09:26 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I'm also a bit curious about exactly what affects what in 12g setups. I'm working on getting my AM Illusion set up for stock class and the troubleshooting is a bit of a headache. Right now the first few shots will be high, but each following shot will go down about 10fps until it evens out around 230. Adjusting the velocity on these guns is a little different than a cocker though, much more finicky. Also the cold *** New England weather isn't helping.
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Old 03-24-2017, 11:21 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Welcome to the thread johnny! What's your setup in terms of powerlet to ball - any expansion chambers / devolumizers? What kind of springs are you running? I'd bet pretty heavy springs to getting a drop off like that.

I put the devolumizer in as well as a bunch of nylon spacers in that chamber above the VASA. The red madmann valve spring is already pretty stiff, so I'm going to see what kind of spike and hot shots before venting before I get and then I will try to shim the valve spring to see how it affects the curve
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If one is going to be an ambassador to the sport do your best to try to convey to new players what the sport is about and attempt to convey the same message to the players that are being abusive.
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Old 03-24-2017, 11:22 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Depending on the valve, springs, inner pre-valve spacing volume, hammer, 12 gram orientation, paintball to barrel match, ambient air temperature/humidity/pressure/elevation, physical location, inline bolt vs. stacked-tube bolt;
you could enjoy 24 shots that vary between 255-300 feet per second (perfect accuracy but some inconsistency), with the 255 and 300 ends being rare and the velocities hovering mostly around 270, and with minimal drop-off on the tail end, like one or two lobbed shots added afterwards;
or opposite this, depending on the setup you could enjoy a 300+ spiked shot as the first shot (as high as 320 but the chrono guy doesn't need to know that) followed by a lot of 270 with +/- 5 fps fluctuation over the span of 30-35 shots with about 2-6 lobbed shots added on the end which tend to look like a series of 250ish shots, then 220, 190, and then the air vents out

The first scenario is noisy, is inconsistent but tolerable for woodsball, and there's little to no drop-off so you get the full might of those 24 shots
^ actually the velocity may increase subtly over the span of those 24 shots
The second scenario is quieter and lasts longer with at least 30 shots but you have to adjust your shots for the predictable drop-off, which is fine and becomes a natural adjustment, you sort of feel where the shots are going to land
In either scenario the shots will be accurate

Its normal if in every eleven shots or so that you get a random lowball or dud, you just chamber another round and try again
The plus is that shots are so quiet compared to the semi-autos around you, and infrequent, that nobody notices, so you can re-aim at the guy and try again

Or I'm just completely insane like that homeless guy that laughs and talks to himself from down the road

Last edited by Pittsburgh Stinkbugs; 03-24-2017 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 03-24-2017, 11:29 AM   #7 (permalink)
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For a sniper I direct your attention to killerito's thread: https://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/a...a-help-me.html

I have a suspicion that his sniper is using liquid CO2 to get the velocity and efficiency that he's getting, that liquid CO2 pools into the downward curve of his steel braided hose

But I worry that it'll eat away at his o-rings
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Old 03-24-2017, 11:41 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pancake View Post
Welcome to the thread johnny! What's your setup in terms of powerlet to ball - any expansion chambers / devolumizers? What kind of springs are you running? I'd bet pretty heavy springs to getting a drop off like that.

I put the devolumizer in as well as a bunch of nylon spacers in that chamber above the VASA. The red madmann valve spring is already pretty stiff, so I'm going to see what kind of spike and hot shots before venting before I get and then I will try to shim the valve spring to see how it affects the curve
No devolumizer, though there is an insert in the valve that acts as one. Currently I'm using a 12g changer directly in the VASA and stock valve spring. I believe the hammer spring is medium/heavy.
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Old 03-24-2017, 11:53 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Thanks again for sharing the link, 17 more pages to read through. (ended up being mostly commentary with some data).
Can't have a thread on MCB without a healthy dose of commentary Its a fun topic, and one that will never be "settled" I think.
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Old 03-24-2017, 11:53 AM   #10 (permalink)
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If you're running 12is in the VASA but also getting a velocity drop with each shot, you must have a really stiff valve spring. I feel like each spring combo has that velocity vs pressure curve, and that there is a spring combo out there, although maybe not yet in the auto cocker world, that would be all you need to get a flat enough velocity curve.
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