Avratech Home of the Retro 7

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Old 08-05-2015, 05:56 AM   #1 (permalink)
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ApoC_101 and Avratech industries are no longer on MCB.

After a significantly lengthy discussion among the Moderators we have all come to the decision that Josh aka ApoC_101 will no longer be allowed to continue this charade on MCB any further.

The membership of MCB have been far, FAR more than patient with Josh than was ever necessary and it was their expressed desire to keep communications open with Josh in the hopes of getting their product or money back that persuaded the Mod staff to reluctantly allow Josh to remain a member on this forum as long as he has. At this time it would seem that this communication avenue is no longer of any use and the Mod staff will no longer allow this forum to be used to drag this out any further.

For those who wish to contact Josh to continue to try and get their money/product (highly recommended!), Josh has stated that his email address is the best method. That being said, there are already posts stating that members are not getting any responses from that email either…

Josh can also be found on Facebook
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Old 08-05-2015, 05:58 AM   #2 (permalink)
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A quick history of the Avratech Retro 7 saga starting after the first round of R7s were finally shipped...over a year and a half late.

Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
Magslide kit

this kit is going to cost somewhere around $400 CAD per kit, and we will start taking prepaid orders in September, but we need to get a list of names together ASAP to make sure we build enough of them. So, post up to let us know that you're in for one

please note, everyone will get one, if you have a Retro 7 already, if you have one on order, or if you are buying them together... But please, get your name in right away and be sure that you can pay for it when the time comes, payment will be due when the parts have started in the shop order process (meaning they are entered in production). We will open up payments in about a week or so when the kit price is final, based on production price quotes from the shop. The kits will most likely be ready to ship late November/early December, although some anodize options may delay the delivery (the most popular colours come first and ship first). You have until the time the parts are done to decide on your colour schemes but getting them in sooner is good (will put it on the list), see the site for more details on colour choices, Avratech Industries Inc. | Home of the Retro 7 Pistol

The DB-R7 .68 Magnum kit comes with the main slide, compensator pump handle, cram-jam feed tube with precision guide rod and return spring, low profile knurled bolt screws, pins and screws for the comp attachment, and race-style rear cocking knob. 1911 sights are also included and can be swapped out for aftermarket versions, the sight line is machined for low glare along the muzzle while sighting, unless ordered otherwise.

the stainless steel body, mag changer, and CA adapter kits will become available in the immediate future and may be added to your order when pricing is confirmed

Current list:
PAID-me! (special top secret Tonsixers anodize, on acid)
PAID-Mitch Ton (special top secret Tonsixers anodize, on acid)
PAID-Russc (special invisible bush camo, you've probably never heard of)
PAID-kiernan (more special top secret Tonsixers anodize)
PAID-worrptangl (brushed silver)
PAID-dm6rocker (gunmetal, dust black)
PAID-chaos (gunmetal)
PAID-DCx7 (gloss silver)
PAID-d3adpool (DPH)
PAID-hawaiianking (dust black)
PAID-secUnd3r (GOLD!)
PAID-waylost (kit and marker, dust black special)
PAID-whee mcgee (gloss silver)
PAID-cruickid (gunmetal)
PAID-Horizon (gloss black)
PAID-Mayvik (black or gunmetal)
PAID-Jebus (special magical colours)
PAID-Donut SD (gunmetal, complete marker and kit with all the fixins)
PAID-Frink (to match Retro)
PAID-Demonio (gunmetal)
PAID-llaw999 (special goodness)
PAID-the reaper (satin black)
PAID-spinalmath (gloss silver)

Cutoff officially Nov 20th, 2012. Total production quantity: 33

Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
Sounds good!
Just a heads up to all: Free shipping now applies to all orders over $500, enjoy!

Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
Note to everyone else: 3 weeks left {09/24/2012} to pay for Mag Slides until cutoff... or much sooner, if stock runs out at it's current rate of sale. There are only 40 of each of the latest upgrades including the Mag slides.

Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
ewww, what pre-orders? we don't do pre-orders. I'm making these parts out of my own pocket, you guys better buy them all

PS, we are making 40 slides... if a couple more people want to get in on this, get in now
Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
Last call for magslide orders, gotta be in by the end of the week. If anyone knows an alternate means to contact Demonio, please let me know... he was about to pay for his and I haven't heard from him (and his PMs are full). I've emailed him as well. Also haven't heard from CTownCA in some time.

Final post from Magslide thread 11/30/2012
Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
Final heads up regarding orders, everyone is paid up and 33 Magslides will be made. No updated ETA just yet, will update once I've got news of progress, and photos... I must get photos... they will be so hot!

April 2013, Still no guns or Magsides, but Josh got some nice new machines.

March 2013: Josh moves shop…more delays in production.

The remainder of the debacle can be read here. Its starts in July 2013
Legal troubles? – definitely more delays
Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
only news to report is that my knee got worse, couldn't work friday and went to get xrays done instead. And I'm dealing with a legal issue at the avratech shop, even though we're due to vacate end of august. wohoo. it's an important issue because I need the deposit back... it's part of money I need to pay off things like magslides. besides that, no news on marker work.

LOTS of people asking questions over the course of a year…
Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
everyone asks the same questions... the answer is always the same. Money is the hold up.

Interesting comment from the members section… Did Avratech go bankrupt or not? This seems to suggest that Avratech is gone and that Josh is now a ‘solo’ operation
Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
it's actually not as simple as me being the sole shareholder (I'm not), it wouldn't be much easier if I were... but regardless, I understand what you are saying and appreciate it (and intend to do just that). What I mean when I say the company is dead broke, is that all the remaining assets *have* been disposed of, the biggest of which was the inventory... which had 40 grand owing against it to suppliers and the bank, and I paid that through purchasing the inventory, which is why the gun building is now a Grasby operation, not an Avratech operation (Avratech Inc. owns none of the necessary assets). hope that clears it up a bit.

edit: I paid and purchased that inventory by means of a personal loan because no other investor would bail us out... and it would have put us into a severely insolvent state (and led to actual bankruptcy). I don't care if anyone is thankful that I bailed it out, all I'm interested in is getting guns done, and now *I too* have to play the waiting game as more parts get machined, and I pay for them out of my own income, and money I'm fighting with the government for, and everything else I can sell which seems to take forever. If anyone thinks I'm going to borrow that much money, and not fill every damn order from Avratech, they are crazy (what else am I going to do with 40 grand worth of raw machined parts and inventory????) dies, and despite most people not being able to contact him…he is not trying to dodge anyone
Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
Domain is indeed expired, direct email is not trying to dodge you guys or anything, been doing a bit of work on guns but not ready to ship until I cover the bases with family Christmas shopping. On another note, life it seems doesn't want to get any easier... Actually I feel like right now, avratech orders and gun work are the least of the worrisome issues, and the easiest to fix. that is to say, everything else is feeling much worse for the most part. Will keep you posted as things progress, should have good news soon.

Ps, if I've been exceedingly rude or nasty to anyone by email, please forgive me... I want to get things sorted out but I'm in a pretty bad spot right now. Not giving up though. I'm dedicated to doing the right thing.

Start of 2014 looks good with potential guns being potentially shipped out after about a year delay… Guns didn’t actually ship until August…
Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
as many of them as I can afford to ship next week, as soon as I get the nipples made at work. they are the only part I need for half a dozen of these. the other half a dozen also need transfer ports, which I will also make on afternoon shift next week if possible.

Wait, what?
Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
Silly question... The reason I'm selling new spots in the first place is to raise funds for the rest. Cash is required and I'm sick of taxing my personal income to the breaking point.
Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
hey haters, the guns have already been made. the only associated cost of completing stock Retros is anodizing them and shipping them. I'm going back to my prior policy of *only* posting here when there is news.
Josh rage quits
Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
This thread is a lost cause, honestly. I don't know why I keep coming here. All the good folks are in contact with me via email and otherwise, and that's all we really need. Reading the **** here puts me in a terrible mood a lot of the time and it just isn't helping me to get anything done... Consider this my resignation until such a time as I'm really caught up. I might not even bother returning to forums again, as a number of my contemporaries have also chosen. Either way I'll continue looking after the good folks, even the annoying ones... But not the haters.

**** the haters.

contact info for non haters:

avratechindustries at gmail dot com
facebook... if I like you, you probably already have it.

he came back a bit before this. But now another gun has shipped, and it seems the shipping methods were a little sketchy…
Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
well, they're insured for 700 each. if they **** one up I actually make money off it... although I feel like it would be a ton of work to claim since they're shipped as gifts and the original sale was through avratech so they should be marked for commercial sale with correct HS code and the NAFTA paperwork with it etc. I can't apply to renew the NAFTA documents without the business so that's no go... so maybe I will discharge them before shipping after all. Haven't had a single issue with customs in the past 60 gun shipments so I hope that trend continues

technically speaking, shipping as gift *is* the most accurate description. I just have no idea what insurance claim entails as a gift. anybody?

2014 ends, 11 guns have been shipped. Continued delays for the remainder. Magslides and other accessories still not started due to Josh not having the funds to get them started…
2015 starts with Josh suggesting that we 3D print the magslides?
Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
No news on that front... financially too much still. But yunno, I just had a thought...

with all the 3D printing going on, would someone be up for attempts at printing the magslide kit???? obviously not all the parts... the guide rod and feed I can procure no problem. the slide itself, and the pump handle... the sights could be incorporated into the slide to make it easier.

And then back pedal quick when people didn’t like that option.
Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
well no **** it's for prototype only... lol

longest dimension of the slide is 10.270"
After a very quiet first half of 2015 Josh finally chimes back in. And this is where the fun really begins to start.
Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
Sorry guys, I'm around, apologies for not posting in a while. No news to report, I'm still totally broke and barely getting by. Really got nothing much to tell ya right now... Wish I had some good news to share but things are still pretty uncertain and I'm not making any kind of bank (so there's not much I can do for markers, besides give away some of mine since I haven't played since mid last year)

On 24 June Josh posted this, it was later edited to what can be seen in the permalink
“As of currently unless something huge changes in terms of money coming in, none of these will be produced. CNC machined parts are not cheap so all I can really do for now is use the existing inventory I bought out to it's fullest extent... which could eventually include selling more finished guns to new customers, or selling the remaining inventory. Of course, paying off the loans I took to buy that inventory would be priority before that, I still owe more than 30 grand (and almost a thousand dollars monthly goes towards that).
I know nobody wants to hear that but I really doubt any of those late-Avratech accessories will ever make it to fruition, though I have thought about other ways to help out the guys who dumped a big chunk of change into the extra parts (giving away new finished Retros etc). will do what I can do, once the inventory starts to move again.”

Despite this, Josh refused to make any effort to try and placate his customers. He even went as far as to threaten them and complain about the fact that they were making his life difficult…

Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
Stilgar, I'm really not that organized. boxes of parts are not assigned to any specific orders... we didn't really have any kind of inventory system in place at any point besides physical counts cross referenced to orders.

You know, if you really need money from Magslide etc, you can take a Retro (once I can make you one) and then sell it. hopefully that's good enough for those of you who basically doubled down and paid approx $1500 CAD for fully decked out guns. that's about the same value as two guns so that's the best I can do unless I come into enough money to contract the accessory parts.

honestly I want those magslides made as much as the rest of you (and I get why people are so upset about that), it's a really beautiful design and probably the best of its type... but we need some really favourable circumstances or a good ol miracle to pull it off any time soon.

I did find a box of Zero barrels after the move, which is kind of awesome. I figured there were some left but could never find them before, so at some point I will ship those out to those who were shorted on them, and ship the rest out to those who ordered extended barrels. they're black anodized 12" one piece with eight inches of control bore at .680.... my favourite barrels ever. I'll be more than happy to ship them out to some players soon enough.

Will be at the farm (where all the inventory is) for two weeks at the end of next month, I should have enough saved up by then to do a big shipping spree and maybe even take some parts to an anodizer (I can't do Tons, they are just too expensive). my ideal goal is to anodize a good chunk of the inventory in some colours I'm happy with and then fill orders (and issue extra guns to compensate for refunds). hopefully people will be okay with that.

if you like any of these options and Avratech owes you something, send me an email at (if you haven't already). I will not be going through this thread looking for rude, accusational, toxic people to please, I will see to the good people first. even if I don't reply to the email, be assured I will see to it. I still have the websites ordering system for final reference as well.

edit: those of you who only ever show up in this thread to throw **** in my face: I will serve you the very last and I will not forget who you are, even if you remove your ****ty posts. if you aren't a part of the solution you're a part of the problem (and getting bummed out by this forum *IS* a problem for my motivation/mental health and you're contributing to that)

Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
Jebus, Things are not working out at this time with beverage production... I'll make more money focusing on my head programmer position 5 days a week and at best, if things work out there may be a joint venture allowing me to produce spirits for sale on the weekend... but I kind of doubt it right now.

Stilgar no such feelings, your demands are a bit overkill but I appreciate your input towards getting this figured out. I'm not planning on developing such a list as sharing it here does nothing constructive far as I'm concerned, of course I will take some pictures when i get things moving next month. nothing will happen before then so I suggest everyone cool their tits.

inventory wise there are more than 60 of each stock aluminum part in inventory including barrels, unanodized. no shortage of triggers, pierce pins, hammers, bolts, or fasteners. the shortage is transfer ports, velocity adjusters, CCI hammer springs, and come to think of it, I believe I'm all out of trigger pins. or maybe it was the setscrews.... don't remember, but all the small parts are quite organized.

another thing that sucks is the total lack of pump handles. none of the Retros going out will come with them... you guys will need to make your own or use bolt action.

Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
lol, thanks for keeping track of my finances Doug, I forgot I paid that one off and took on two more

Drop the fraud **** guys... I really don't appreciate it. fraud requires deliberate intent, and it requires personal gain. Neither of these transpired. my plan all along was to get those parts done, even after the business sank and I was willing to keep over-stretching my personal limits to get it done, because I wanted to do better than those before me. I still do. No guarantees.

I honestly don't care about my reputation here to be honest... the era of my life that revolved around paintball and that community is finished. all that matters to me is giving some good people what they earned.

Will post again next month when I have some good news. Cheers
Soon an interesting idea surfaces which Josh seems to think might work. But this idea is also fraught with some issues. How much stock does Josh have? How many guns does he still owe people? Does he have enough to satisfy everyone?
Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
You know, that isn't a bad idea at all, selling parts kits to build your own. I would be comfortable doing it (and I think others would too) if there is a middle-man in charge, someone we all trust who can accept the payments in Canada, in advance to me shipping the package, then pay me once the delivery is received by the customer. any parts I don't have, would then be purchased by the customer from other sources (CCI, RNS) or procured on their own otherwise, same goes for anodize. I can provide detailed instruction on how to assemble and tune the product.

Price wise, I'd be comfortable with $500 CAD per kit.

stock I know that I have, in sufficient quantities:
-all the 6061 aluminum parts required
-CCI valves, with valve springs
-CCI hammers
-Bolt, trigger, pierce pin, pierce pin seal, cocking handle
-trigger springs, retaining pin
-setscrews to plug the frame air passage, and to retain the trigger pin
-all necessary orings (bolt ring, detent, piece pin oring, transfer port orings)
-hogue palm swell grips, with grip screws
-delrin sight posts (customer could also source brass ones from RNS)
-essential screws like valve screw, feed screw, and the CCI front frame thumbscrew
-.680 bore and freak bored barrels (both are available)

parts I know I'm short or low on:
-cci mainspring
-transfer ports
-magic nipples
-velocity adjusters

When I will be inspecting the stock of parts and taking some photos, and shipping some things: approximately July 25.
Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
as always, thanks for your tremendously valuable input Drum

just so you know, I made 100 Retros in that final batch. less than 40 were sold so that leaves a lot of untapped inventory which I paid for personally (when I bought em out)... I'm open to the suggestion that I sell that inventory so cash can flow and things get done quicker. whatever it takes to make all of this work. none of the parts I would sell are for "other peoples guns".

Solex, I have Falcons and will ship them out, as is, to the correct owners. replacement parts did not get made and besides a quick tune up I'm basically washing my hands of them. Sorry for the huge delay on getting them back out.
Josh talks about quiting again.
Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
Well, I can see that option isn't going to work...

Neither is giving guns to those who expect refunds from my dead business, so let's toss that one too...

the good folks can get in touch with me and I'll do what I can. I'm not going to bother posting in this toxic forum any longer. too much bad blood, I swear it's like so many of you want nothing more than for me to fail in pulling through... maybe they want me to be a villain so they can feel no guilt in taking every easy shot at me. every time I read through that **** it convinces me less and less that it's worth it.

but it is worth it for some people.

[email deleted]. I am leaving this forum permanently after my report with photos in July to show the inventory, plans for what to do with it, and information on outgoing shipments.
This post has promised an update by 31 July 2015… and failed to follow through on that.
Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
Stilgar, nobody is rage quitting. I'm scheduling in advance my final visits to this forum and posts (one last thread basically) to provide the necessary info. It has nothing to do with general dip****tery hurting my feelings, it's just necessary for my focus and peace of mind. thinking about the bull**** and threats here has proven already to be an unnecessary distraction at my new job, and keeps me up at night... I will have no more of it. my new job is my top priority now, the relentless drama on this forum can no longer be a part of my life.

I'm also sick of repeating myself with information like:

-there are less than two dozen outstanding marker orders.

-more than 75% of all the Retros sold have been delivered to their owners. I intend to deliver the remainder to the best of my ability, even after I leave this place.

-the money from accessory sales did not pay for the previous production costs... it was consumed by overhead alone (like most of the business).

-running out of money from excessive overhead and not enough sales for three years straight is not fraud.

I'm also not very ****ing amused with the staff here editing my user title and thread titles and who knows what else lately... Grow the **** up. You accuse me of unprofessional behavior and yet you stoop even lower. How ****ing droll.

So, that all being said. I've resumed communications by email with those of you who made purchases with avratech, and will continue to keep that open (it's much more to the point than communications on this forum). I will make a few more posts here before the end of next month, Friday July 31st. I have that entire last week off and will make it as productive as possible.

Since that post, many MCB members (including myself) have not yet received any form of communication from Josh. There has been no update, and no further attempt to try and make anything right for the people he owes money and product too.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:39 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Perhaps it's for the best.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:50 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Today is apparently Apoc's birthday, and I noticed him cruising these threads this morning.

Take that for what it's worth also. He is still around and keeps himself updated on here.
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Welcome back buddy! And GanonsGrin is your brother? He is the devil
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:55 PM   #5 (permalink)
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It's about time. I feel bad for the people that he ripped off, nobody deserves to have their hard earned money flat out stolen from them.
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Old 08-05-2015, 01:21 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I can see moving him to the airsmith wall of shame section but what does a ban do? If an airsmith goes dark they aren't going to post. At least if they can still browse through all the people they burned they can get a sense of shame to maybe attempt to make good.

I don't think most airsmiths start out with the intention to outright burn people, they just get in over their heads.

Why not let him stay and truly feel like a piece of **** for the consequences of his actions. Not be out of site outta mind.

Last edited by theangrydragon; 08-05-2015 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 08-05-2015, 01:36 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I hate to say it but I knew the guy was a douche from the first post of his I read how long back. I never bothered with anything he was selling.

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Old 08-05-2015, 01:39 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by theangrydragon View Post

Why not let him stay and truly feel like a piece of **** for the consequences of his actions. Not be out of site outta mind.
If he did - he would have fixed this long ago, so good bye to trash

He's a scumbag.
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Old 08-05-2015, 01:50 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by theangrydragon View Post
I can see moving him to the airsmith wall of shame section but what does a ban do? If an airsmith goes dark they aren't going to post. At least if they can still browse through all the people they burned they can get a sense of shame to maybe attempt to make good.

I don't think most airsmiths start out with the intention to outright burn people, they just get in over their heads.

Why not let him stay and truly feel like a piece of **** for the consequences of his actions. Not be out of site outta mind.
this has been discussed ad nauseum by the moderators, with calls for the ban going back probably over a year.

There is (by rudimentary math, and existing posts) over $20k in outstanding merch. If by allowing Apoc to continue to post, we are in any way delaying or preventing people from taking appropriate steps to seek a remedy (outside of the forum) then we are doing everyone a disservice. What the members are actually getting by continuing his membership is essentially lies and hollow promises. If you think that Apoc feels like **** for his actions, you may have missed the language he uses in his posts, and the distance he puts between himself and the current situation (blaming instead a corporation that as far as we can tell, was never registered). In the past other airsmiths have stayed on after burning people, yes - so imagine how grievous this instance is that he is the first to achieve a ban by way of pre-order failure, this dubious accolade is mirrored by the stunningly similar accolade as having been responsible for the "No Pre-Order" rule.
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Old 08-05-2015, 02:46 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Good riddance, the R7 was a nice idea but as soon as I saw "preorder" I was a tad dubious of his claims as he always talked big in his posts here, and I was just flabbergasted when I noticed the second preorder for the magslides, and then trying those VSC kits too! Talk about biting off more than you can chew.

Pretty CAD renderings are pretty, but they are just pixels.

Josh if your reading this im dissapointed you didnt deliver on your big promises, frankly this is just what I was expecting as I followed along with your project

To everyone who lost out in this endevour, im sorry for not speaking my mind earlier. Ive lost money to preorders on here, I know that sting.
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