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Old 01-23-2017, 02:27 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Sorry Bang*Bang* about taking this post in a different direction, cool Phantom BTW.

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Originally Posted by Leo87pump View Post
I'm not sure about old phantoms but on a vsc phantom the stock barrel is .686
Mike confirmed this to me on the phone plus, i measured it at work with an inspection competitor. I'm doubting about freak boring my stock barrel, i'm thinking about c bore barrel or ifit
I have never bough a Phantom new, a lot of parts but never a full gun, all the ones I've picked up in trades, cash deals, bulk deals etc. With all of those they never came with a C-Bored/Freak barrels and I've heard with the bores being large they were from the earlier generation. I've purchased various length C-Bored barrels from Mike over the last few years and they shoot money, if I had a non bored barrel such as the OP I wouldn't want to sent it out for boring do to the possibility of scratching the beautiful anno so I can understand the reasoning for the I-Fit kit I just suggested the ASP Detent to keep the matching barrel without Freak Boring it in fear of it getting scratched during the boring process.
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Old 01-23-2017, 02:45 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Acrually my bad for changing subject OP, nice phantom! Was it on ebay a few days ago?

To turbowagonman, i never bought one new, always used. Pm'ed you
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Old 01-24-2017, 02:04 PM   #13 (permalink)
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We're talking about Phantoms and stuff, I consider that on topic.

One correction I have to make about the iFit kit:
The barrel adapter "in between" is actually a Phantom to Phantom threaded. So all it does is create the space for the insert between the barrel and the breach.

Separately they sell barrel adapters, but that is not what I have.

In this way, I'm thinking the short iFit piece as more of a detent then a bore match. I believe Punkworks did some testing and concluded that the ultimate bore matching barrel would have an 8-10" back and short ported front (2-4"?) for best performance/efficiency/consistency with an overall total barrel length of 10-14".

Based on that, it would stand to reason that the long freak backs come the closest to this ideal.

They also said they found best performance -.005 from the "just slipping through" benchmark test everyone uses. So if the paint just slips through at .688, ideal bore match is 683. They suggested the lower limit at -.010 as this is the point where paint starts to pop in the breach. So if .688 paint .678 as the lowest one should go, maximum... but .683 would be ideal underbore.

This was a projected maximum underbore. I don't believe they actually tested a -.010 underbore.

For me, this will be my first venture into bore matching so I'll share what I can about the detent rings vs iFit, but I've never used and don't have a freak back system for comparison.

I only hear good things about the ASP detent mod, but I'm cheap and lazy with a bias to leave things in original condition. So if the ifit works, I'll probably leave it at that.

As a total pump noob, thanks for the heads up about double feeds and pump stroke caused breach breaks! Now I'll know to make sure I don't f-up as opposed to blaming the equipment. That said, it might be kinda fun to double ball someone on purpose. Bonus points!

Last edited by Bang*Bang**; 01-24-2017 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 01-24-2017, 02:20 PM   #14 (permalink)
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From my humble point of view and knowledge, a minimum of 4" bore match is required for better accuracy/consistency. Never used anything other than cci detent rings on phantoms, so don't quote me. The idea of ifit looks and sounds great for stockish look and slightly better performance.

Now, on my freaked barrel sniper, i get +/- 2 with good paint. Shoots darts where i want them to land.

I will be interested on a ifit kit for my phantom in the future.
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Old 01-24-2017, 03:48 PM   #15 (permalink)
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+/-2 range is what dreams are made of!

I doubt I'll be there with the iFit, especially if you're right about the 4"minimum. It''ll be interesting to find out... once I figure out how to bore out the phantom handle safely.
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Old 01-24-2017, 03:50 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GauchoRockero View Post
From my humble point of view and knowledge, a minimum of 4" bore match is required for better accuracy/consistency. Never used anything other than cci detent rings on phantoms, so don't quote me.
If you've only ever used cci detent rings and freak inserts why is 4" a minimum? You don't have any point for comparison, but you make an absolute statement that is a continuation of the myth that at least -fill in the blank- number of inches is necessary for a control bore.

This was probably started by smart parts or fans of the freak control bore system.

If their was a minimum necessary length for a control bore, the ifit system would not exist. To that end, the CCM barrels would not work either--they only have a control bore of about 1.5". I have a CCM phantom barrel with 1.5" long control bore and it is every bit as accurate as the same gun using a freak bored barrel on the same gun.

Somewhere on mcb there are discussions with data that have disproved that there is a minimum number of inches necessary for a control bore.
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Old 01-24-2017, 04:02 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Idk about freak fans, but I'm speaking from personal experience. Using lapco sizers (same thing as the short ifit/ccm sizers/backs) i did see an improvement from a stock barrel, but never beat my freak kit.

If i would rate from non accurate to accurate it will go as follow: stock barrel, lapco sizers, freak inserts.

So again, from my knowledge and personal use, i see that a longer control bore gives me better accuracy and consistency than a short 1.5" 👍
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Old 01-24-2017, 05:25 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I always hear about how the optimal control bore is X but I never hear the part where they say the improvement is Y% better. I'd just be leery of dropping cash on a barrel system for a 5% improvement.

On a separate note, if you ever get a hopper adapter on there be careful with force feed hoppers. I had one on my phantom with no detents and an over bore and when I pumped back the balls just shot out the barrel. Looked really I'm told.
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Old 01-24-2017, 06:40 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by somethingbenign View Post
I always hear about how the optimal control bore is X but I never hear the part where they say the improvement is Y% better.
This is a really good point. As I recall, the Punkworks guys said that even if you take either ends of the range of performance, the difference was fairly small. The only really big difference was with barrels that had some sort of thing protruding on the inside... so damaged or defective.

I think of you're getting into bore matching, you're getting into the nitty gritty akin to tuning a car for a few more hp, saving a few grams on a bike or squeezing a bit more overclocking out of a gpu. Return on investment is minimal, but it's better... so yeah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by somethingbenign View Post
On a separate note, if you ever get a hopper adapter on there be careful with force feed hoppers. I had one on my phantom with no detents and an over bore and when I pumped back the balls just shot out the barrel.
lol! Good to know. I guess this is the real reason to bore match right here.

Lol, force feed on a Phantom.

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Old 01-25-2017, 12:08 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang*Bang** View Post
... once I figure out how to bore out the phantom handle safely.
Bang*Bang, I've had to bore out Foregrip's before and what I have successfully done in the past is to take a 3/4 inch Hole Saw bit and put some Sticky Back Sand Paper on it, put the Hole Saw on my drill and bore away.
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Started with a Splatmaster, moved onto a Nelspot 007, then came the Autocockers, then a STERLING Pump, next was a Bob Long defiant then a PM7. As of now I have 10 Sterling Pumps, 2 Phantoms for SC, a CCM SS-25, a PGP and a Sovereign 3.


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Last edited by turbowagonman; 01-25-2017 at 12:44 PM.
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