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Rainman229 08-27-2011 12:35 AM

Double barrel break breach
 
The other thread about break breach got me thinking on the idea again.
I figured spool valve is the best idea for a bolt less setup.

Here's a few screen shots of what i came up with. (I probably won't be building one as funds for my projects are slim to none. But don't meani can't toy with ideas.)

https://www.rainman229.com/hide/double/double break.jpg

https://www.rainman229.com/hide/doubl...pen breach.jpg

vertical version
https://www.rainman229.com/hide/doubl...vert break.jpg

https://www.rainman229.com/hide/doubl...break open.jpg

2d of inside the valve
https://www.rainman229.com/hide/double/inside double.jpg

chopper duke 08-27-2011 02:53 AM

I like it.

stolz 08-27-2011 04:37 AM

sign me up lol

crazyorigin 08-27-2011 07:35 AM

If you build it, they will come.



By they, I mean I.

Rainman229 08-27-2011 08:26 AM

I'll build it if someone wants to fund it. :)

crazyorigin 08-27-2011 08:37 AM

What type of funding would be necessary? I was thinking this could probably be done for pretty low budget using something like an ION as the valve body, threaded into the hinged break action front end, cocker threaded breaches, sold w/o barrels.

Rainman229 08-27-2011 08:57 AM

Not enough volume in an ion to pop 2 balls out. My design has around 2 cubic inches of air in the valve chamber. When an ion has about 1 cu inch.

crazyorigin 08-27-2011 09:05 AM

Did you design an entirely new valve assembly? It would also be pretty slick to see this simly milled to take cocker lower tube components and accept cocker frames, I would love to see a over/under that would take a cocker frame, would be the most bad *** pistol out there.

Skibbo 08-27-2011 11:58 AM

I've been designing a single shot break open dueling pistol since i was inspired by the historical paintball post, but I was going to use goblin shells.
something like this would be way more awesome.

MarkT 08-27-2011 12:04 PM

Why have both barrels fire at the same time? I would think a dual trigger model would be cooler.

Skibbo 08-27-2011 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainman229 (Post 1980441)
Not enough volume in an ion to pop 2 balls out. My design has around 2 cubic inches of air in the valve chamber. When an ion has about 1 cu inch.

What about putting two ions side by side? I know it'd be somewhat wider than with a custom valve, but it could make the build significantly easier. Plus if you did the over under version, width wouldn't matter as much, since then it would be a matter of how tall you'd want it to be.

mustangii 08-27-2011 12:08 PM

or used 2 ion valves? opps too slow, :lol:

PistolRogue 08-27-2011 12:23 PM

Over/under with a two stage trigger or a separate trigger for each barrel would be absolutely awesome... Olympia anyone?

Rainman229 08-27-2011 05:03 PM

the Back section is the valve. The last posted picture shows a 2d of the inside. It would be multiple parts that would assemble in to one.

Setting up a duel valve option would probably be easier to build. Two stage trigger shouldn't be that hard.

Using an Ion is not an option. Would only bring the cost up If anything.

ComradeBenedict 08-27-2011 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyorigin (Post 1980432)
What type of funding would be necessary? I was thinking this could probably be done for pretty low budget using something like an ION as the valve body, threaded into the hinged break action front end, cocker threaded breaches, sold w/o barrels.

Also am curious.

mpsd 08-29-2011 09:10 PM

Looks like the composite gun built by John Malkovitch on the 1993 movie In The Line of Fire:

https://ckmaccom.startlogic.com/images/gb/rgb561b.jpg

I'm curious to see the end result.

About it's firing mechanism, have you thought of a Nelson valve with two internal chambers, two power tubes and two hammers being pushed forward against a spring and being held on the front by a couple of sears taht when released, would allow the hammers to go back against the power tubes's bases? That would make it more "manual" but would be exactly like the movie's gun. LOL At least it would be pretty easy to maintain and service.

Rainman229 08-30-2011 03:06 AM

My thoughts were fewer moving parts the better. Can always do duel spool's. Might be a tad longer.

But would be better then using a ion. Ions would need a new spool and a seat for it work as well as something at the rear for an air port. So why bother with making some work with what your building if its not going to be plug and play. Better off making what you need.


Cost of building one still working on that as I don't have all the details I need on the hinge setup. I have the basic idea of it . Just haven't been able to get the details done on paper yet.

Rainman229 09-02-2011 03:26 AM

Well did the math on making these. If your really interested in seeing a few made and Want one and are willing to invest or pre order one (how ever you want to see it)
I would say i would need at least 2 people possibly 3. Pm me if your sure you would want. don''t contact me just to see how much. wasting my time is also wasting yours..

But anyways. I figured i could build these for around $300 to $400 each (not invested or preorder price) that would include the materiel and my time for a build. But would not include stock or frame as well as reg. Those would be extra since they won't be built by me. I may make a frame for them but un certain on how go with that at the moment

edit
If you decide to contact me. For the quote of whats needed to make this happen. I will divide it by 2 or 3. Any more and would not be able to give you one for your time, money, and patients invested. So for your contribution you will be receiving one.

Rainman229 09-02-2011 08:31 AM

Think divide by 3 is the best choice

Spider! 09-02-2011 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainman229 (Post 1984148)
I don't have all the details I need on the hinge setup. I have the basic idea of it . Just haven't been able to get the details done on paper yet.

This is where I get hung up (without a mill). It reminds me of a pneumag. You get all caught up in the valves and actuators, but it's finding a good spot for the LPR and the hoses that makes it look right. A good hinge and breech will be important on a shotgun style marker.

Skibbo 09-02-2011 01:42 PM

what about housing the LPR and hoses in the front grip? Just let the hoses be longer and coiled in a cavity, so when you open it the hoses straighten and won't disconnect. That way you can hide everything and have it still look great.

Spider! 09-02-2011 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skibbo (Post 1988638)
what about housing the LPR and hoses in the front grip? Just let the hoses be longer and coiled in a cavity, so when you open it the hoses straighten and won't disconnect. That way you can hide everything and have it still look great.

I was just comparing the design process. You get involved the mechanics of the operation and find the "easy" stuff like a simple hinge to be a problem.

Rainman229 09-02-2011 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spider! (Post 1988903)
I was just comparing the design process. You get involved the mechanics of the operation and find the "easy" stuff like a simple hinge to be a problem.

Anybody can make a ghetto hinge set up for it. But making one that breaks like a true shotgun is tricky. Flipping or hinge at the seam will break as the drawing show. Hinged like a shotgun should be will pop the breach above the rear housing to load. And only bring the front down less then 15degs to do so. The other way you need to flip it at least 40degs to load as shown in the drawing.
Less likly to jam a finger in there that way. I have the setup layed out. Little more complex then a basic hinge. But worth it .

punisher068 09-02-2011 08:53 PM

Can I assume you would make this First strike compatible?

Rainman229 09-02-2011 08:56 PM

Any rounds you shove it in it will work. If you have the time to fiddle With witch end goes in first. Then yes :)

ComradeBenedict 09-02-2011 09:02 PM

Do you have an idea of how long the body will be? I'm thinking about what set-up would be best for this.

Rainman229 09-02-2011 10:03 PM

Well total length of it Is about 5.375 inchs. Front breach part being about 2" of it. and the hinge being close to the nose. So you have enough room to mount a cocker frame below it or a ion frame or to mount a kp frame under it.

Ion frame would probably be the easiest as you kill 2 birds with one stone, with it having an asa built in to it.

ComradeBenedict 09-02-2011 10:09 PM

I was thinking more along the lines of a K-frame with a flat mount, for this kind of look:
https://cdn.pimpmyspace.org/media/pms...nunderover.png
Will this be 12gram compatible?

Rainman229 09-02-2011 10:18 PM

k frame is doable But 12ies kind of doubt. Even running in the 150 to 250 psi range your still filling a 2 to 2.5 cubic inch air chamber. Can always cross that bridge when we get their. At the moment it's unsure if it will work and how many shots you could get out of it.

Someone could always test an ion on 12s and divide the shot count in half to see if its worth the attempt. hmm if i only had a working ion

Spider! 09-02-2011 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainman229 (Post 1989207)
Any rounds you shove it in it will work. If you have the time to fiddle With witch end goes in first. Then yes :)

I would be tempted to try it, but it would look odd to be sniping with FS rounds from a sawed off shotgun.

Fluff 09-02-2011 10:21 PM

dual 12ies? One for each barrel?

Rainman229 09-02-2011 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spider! (Post 1989310)
I would be tempted to try it, but it would look odd to be sniping with FS rounds from a sawed off shotgun.

That it would. but on the other hand the Wtf coming out of the guys mouth as you hit him with 2 fs rounds would be priceless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fluff (Post 1989311)
dual 12ies? One for each barrel?

2 barrels one pull. Double valved version is a touchy subject. As most fields require one fire per pull. Insurance bs
And a staged trigger i have not worked the details out yet. So that version is on the back burner.

If you could get your hands on the double 12 changers. the ones that pop 2 12s in one tube yeah could see that working.

Skibbo 09-02-2011 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainman229 (Post 1989308)
k frame is doable But 12ies kind of doubt. Even running in the 150 to 250 psi range your still filling a 2 to 2.5 cubic inch air chamber. Can always cross that bridge when we get their. At the moment it's unsure if it will work and how many shots you could get out of it.

Someone could always test an ion on 12s and divide the shot count in half to see if its worth the attempt. hmm if i only had a working ion

If you use a little math (coppied from doomlabs)
"We know that 1.8 grams of CO2 == 61.02in3 so (12/1.8)(61.02)=406.7Vin3 at 1atm

We know that 1atm == 14.7 PSI so (406.7) * 14.7 / 150 = 39.86in3

So 12 grams of CO2 will fill 39.86in3 at 150 PSI at 77F"

So take your 39.86 and divide by 2.5 and you get roughly 16 shots per 12 gram. If you ran double 12's like was suggested, 16 would actually be pretty good.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainman229 (Post 1989358)
If you could get your hands on the double 12 changers. the ones that pop 2 12s in one tube yeah could see that working.

Found one for 44.95 from armed paintball, wouldn't be impossible to see who makes them and contact them directly.
Pic:
https://www.armedpaintball.com/paintb...o2-adapter.jpg

A double long dropout would be pretty cool. Just have some supports to help hold the 1st 12 gram in while you put the other in.

Rainman229 09-03-2011 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skibbo (Post 1989393)
If you use a little math (coppied from doomlabs)
"We know that 1.8 grams of CO2 == 61.02in3 so (12/1.8)(61.02)=406.7Vin3 at 1atm

We know that 1atm == 14.7 PSI so (406.7) * 14.7 / 150 = 39.86in3

So 12 grams of CO2 will fill 39.86in3 at 150 PSI at 77F"

So take your 39.86 and divide by 2.5 and you get roughly 16 shots per 12 gram. If you ran double 12's like was suggested, 16 would actually be pretty good.


Found one for 44.95 from armed paintball, wouldn't be impossible to see who makes them and contact them directly.
Pic:
https://www.armedpaintball.com/paintb...o2-adapter.jpg

A double long dropout would be pretty cool. Just have some supports to help hold the 1st 12 gram in while you put the other in.

Also need to take the wasted air in consideration as this is pneumatic operated. But that should be minimal at the most maybe a shots worth of air. So 15 shots not bad. In all i think 3.5oz would be the best way to go.

Skibbo 09-03-2011 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainman229 (Post 1989498)
Also need to take the wasted air in consideration as this is pneumatic operated. But that should be minimal at the most maybe a shots worth of air. So 15 shots not bad. In all i think 3.5oz would be the best way to go.

yah. I wonder if a T fitting would work and just rout the air equally to both firing chambers... if you made the barrels longer you could even house it in the foregrip. that'd be pretty cool

Rainman229 09-03-2011 02:19 AM

Only make a single firing chamber version for the time being. Duel chamber would work just fine with a t only thing is the only reg i found that would just about keep up with a duel setup was an aka 2 liter. On that note i could do a duel chamber with out a feed t I could build that in to the body. So it would only need one feed to the body.

Skibbo 09-03-2011 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainman229 (Post 1989556)
Only make a single firing chamber version for the time being. Duel chamber would work just fine with a t only thing is the only reg i found that would just about keep up with a duel setup was an aka 2 liter. On that note i could do a duel chamber with out a feed t I could build that in to the body. So it would only need one feed to the body.

What's the recharge time on the reg? I would think you could find one with 2-3 seconds to recharge since it'd take at least that to load more rounds and get it ready to fire again.

Or is it a factor i]I'm missing besides recharge rate like volume output or something.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainman229 (Post 1989498)
... In all i think 3.5oz would be the best way to go.

And I was also thinking, 3.5 oz is roughly 85g of CO2 (conversion could be off, just did a quick one w/google)
what about just using an 88g CO2? Granted they're a bit more cumbersome than 12ies but then you could load it in a single go. Plus they're smaller diameter wise than a 3.5oz, so much easier to hide.

ComradeBenedict 09-03-2011 09:47 AM

But aren't all 88 grams Crosman brand?

Rainman229 09-03-2011 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skibbo (Post 1989694)
What's the recharge time on the reg? I would think you could find one with 2-3 seconds to recharge since it'd take at least that to load more rounds and get it ready to fire again.

Or is it a factor i]I'm missing besides recharge rate like volume output or something.




And I was also thinking, 3.5 oz is roughly 85g of CO2 (conversion could be off, just did a quick one w/google)
what about just using an 88g CO2? Granted they're a bit more cumbersome than 12ies but then you could load it in a single go. Plus they're smaller diameter wise than a 3.5oz, so much easier to hide.

What your missing is it'll be using Ion hosing and fittings for pluming

Skibbo 09-04-2011 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainman229 (Post 1990055)
What your missing is it'll be using Ion hosing and fittings for pluming

ah. well then that would do it. I dont know enough about ions i guess.


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