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Old 07-11-2018, 11:51 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Mac 33 on Ultralite board HELP// Ion/Matrix/Axe hybrid project

As the title states I am currently working on a project that requires the use of a mac 33 solenoid with an ultralite frame.

The issue seems to be that it does not supply enough power to the solenoid to activate it. Would adding a capacitor do the trick? If so how should it be implemented into the circuit? My initial uneducated guess is to wire the capacitor directly to the 9v but I don't know enough about circuit design. I do have Ion spec capacitors (16v 2200uv) and spare ul board to mess with.

I've seen a couple cases where an ultralite frame has been used to power a Mac 33 but could not get any specifics on how it was done. Any help would be much appreciated, this is my most pressing issue on my project.

BTW its a gas thru grip ion (Empire Relay ASA) with ultralite frame and lucky stage 5.1

Also, I need a solution to implement a 9v into a front grip of some kind, any help with that would be awesome as well. Thinking I'd like to find someone who can machine a housing that screws into the vertical asa. I'm open to non conventional battery ideas as well.

My current progress





Waiting on Relay regulator, hoses, feedneck, trigger, eyes and some wire. Would like to find a UL Tadao board

Back and front of stock ul pmr board




Last edited by p-baller100; 07-12-2018 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:19 AM   #2 (permalink)
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The MAC33 solenoids use very little wattage so I don’t think it is a power or current issue, what voltage is your board putting out?
My first thought would be to drive a MOSFET gate with your UL board output and see if that gets you where you’re going. Take care when dealing with solenoids as they generate a voltage spike when they’re open circuited, the FET body diode should protect it, but it can cause strange behavior if the transient couples onto the ground plane.
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:27 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Oh I had been told that these solenoids were power hungry. I’m not sure what voltage it runs at, but it does power a dm7 solenoid fine. And the Mac 33 was working on an ion board prior, which had a capacitor. I hooked the leads to a 9v directly and it clicked just fine. I can try and check it on a multimeter tomorrow.

I’m not familiar with MOSFET gates, what does that do and how would I wire one up?

Really appreciate the help btw!
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:54 AM   #4 (permalink)
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As an alternate to the DYE frame... maybe a Mini frame and foregrip? It's already set up for a lot of what you want to do, including a 9V in the front grip.
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:07 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p-baller100 View Post
Oh I had been told that these solenoids were power hungry. I’m not sure what voltage it runs at, but it does power a dm7 solenoid fine. And the Mac 33 was working on an ion board prior, which had a capacitor. I hooked the leads to a 9v directly and it clicked just fine. I can try and check it on a multimeter tomorrow.

I’m not familiar with MOSFET gates, what does that do and how would I wire one up?

Really appreciate the help btw!


If your valve is working straight off the 9V that’s one potential problem solved.
Solenoids use very little power (energy over time) but require a large bump of energy to saturate the coils when you activate them, try sticking your capacitor across your battery (mind the polarity) input to see if it is a battery internal resistance problem or losses through the board
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Old 07-12-2018, 01:43 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I actually had thought of using a mini frame. Only thing is it doesn’t have a channel for the barbs and hoses. Not to mention the problem of implanting the board with a Mac 33 and also wiring in some kind of eyes and mounting the microswitch some how. Plus I just prefer the looks and ergos of a ul frame, the Mac 33 and eyes plug right in and work with my ion internals. I’ve thought about trying to contact someone to have a 3d printed foregrip made, anyone know of who I could contact for that? I’d prefer aluminum though.

I would imagine it’s loses through the board. So can I just wire it between the positive end of the battery harness and solder that to the solenoid wire that comes from the board to the solenoid? Wouldn’t that give the solenoid constant power instead of only when I pull the trigger? It seems like that would circumvent the power sent from the board when the microswitch is activated. I’m trying to find a electrical circuit diagram for the ul board but not having any luck.
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:31 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Actually I was suggested to use a ultralite slg board as it has the capacitor built in. Anyone know if I can put one of those in with little or no modification to the frame?
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:42 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I’ve also looked for a schematic and had little luck, there is a transistor output circuit driving the solenoid on the board, so it is possible to add a jumper wire to the transistor from the battery and bypass any loss through the board, but without a schematic it would be alot of poking and hoping on a small SMT board.

Did you try the capacitor in parallel to the battery? That would at least get you around the battery internal resistance
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Old 07-12-2018, 06:19 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I won't be able to try the capacitor across the battery until tomorrow when my capacitors come in. But if the solenoid works straight off the battery wouldn't it work the same as if there was a capacitor in parallel to it?

I also added a couple pictures of the pmr ul board for reference. I have a DM7 board and am looking at aftermarket options, so they may be a different layout.

Looking into the SLG UL board as an option, I may order one tonight and if it doesn't work I'm only out $20-$30, so it might be worth the try. I bet it will activate the solenoid just find it is just a matter of shoehorning it into a standard ul frame. I found a virtue one I'd like to get but I do not know if the aftermarket boards come with capacitors or if you are just supposed to reuse your stock ul board capacitor. They are wired via a molex connector which is handy.
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Old 07-12-2018, 11:21 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Thanks for the pictures, i really would have put a-lot more into the board design. So it looks easy enough to poke around on.
I would first try adding a capacitor across the battery terminals, you can just touch the leads or use a jumper wire,
if that doesn't improve things, you can try adding it to the drain side of the power FET up top, the IR FR210 part, the drain is the very top blade that holds it to the board. That part has a fairly high RDS_on value (the resistance across the FET when it is on) so that may be dropping enough to not pull in your coil.
If you've got the capacitors it is a cheap and easy thing to try (where did you go Radio Shack?!)

Let me explain what we're trying to do poorly:


There is an internal resistance in the battery of about 1.6 Ohms, which is just awful, a AA battery is like 0.1 Ohms, a 18650 is like 0.04 Ohms, so there's going to be some current limiting, The RDS_on for the FET is 1.5 Ohms, so you're looking at around 3 Ohms of resistance between the battery and the solenoid. So even at modest currents the voltage drop might be significant, so hopefully by adding some energy storage you can skip half that resistance and improve your voltage situation.
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