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Old 11-14-2012, 02:07 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Well, you're absolutely right about that.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:26 PM   #82 (permalink)
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^^^^
Ya think? People also expect aircraft mechanics to work for free. But that is another thread.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:29 PM   #83 (permalink)
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^^^^
Ya think? People also expect aircraft mechanics to work for free. But that is another thread.
I think it falls into almost all labor. You would not believe how many people tell me charging them $50 an hour for auto tech labor (shop rate) is "ridiculous" despite it being artificially low based on any business model. The people who complain the most are often in jobs that pay six figures and give ample time off - many of them have vacation homes on the lakes here.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:38 PM   #84 (permalink)
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yeah... another thread.

Although it has been a very interesting conversation. Especially the little trips into history (greatly appreciated).

Is there a perfect barrel thread? YES! It is Stingray/Mirage/Mega-Z/Phantom/Autococker/ICD/Spyder/Blazer/A5/SL-68/Ion/VM-68/[enter favorite here]. One reason I got rid of my 'cocker was, in fact, the threads - all my good barrels are non-Cocker, and I didn't wanna spen even more money on my third-string gun.

We've learned that finer threads tend to hold better, coarser threads are harder to damage. Neither is (apparently) easier to make than slip-fit. That Mr. Orr picked something because it worked and it became an industry (for better or worse).

Not bad, and one of the few threads that didn't end up costing me money
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:24 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ironnerd88 View Post
But if it's so cheap, quick, and easy to do, why can't I order a barrel in whatever thread I want?
-It's quick and cheap to produce accurate threads in bulk.

It costs money to set up a CNC machine; you have to install tools (expensive inserted carbide) in each of the toolholder stations, you have to "gauge" each one so the computer knows how far the tool is sticking out, depending on the machine you might have to swap chucks or install and bore some soft jaws, or install the right set of collet pads, you'll need to set up the bar feeder, the CAD guy has to draw the part then convert it to G-code or whatever language the CNC is using, it has to be test-run and the parts gauged...

A good production shop, even with already-proven G-Code for the barrel thread, might be able to reset a machine in two hours. That's two hours the machine isn't making any money, and two hours of operator time.

But, once it's set up, as long as the bar feeder hopper is full, it'll sit there and drop fresh parts all day long.

So let's say it only costs $1,000 to set up the machine. That's actually pretty low for most production shops. Let's say material costs roughly a dollar per barrel- which, again, isn't too far off the mark at today's aluminum prices.

Now, the operator presses the button and runs off ten barrels. How much does each one cost? Yep, roughly $101.

But a thousand would be just a dollar-ten each.

Setup costs are fixed, and come with every single part. But the more parts you spread that out over, the less it costs per part. CNC shops want to see runs of 5,000 or 10,000 or 100,000. The fewer times they have to take down the machine and reset it, the more money they can make. Even 200 oddball-thread barrel backs literally isn't worth the time.

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Old 11-14-2012, 04:29 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Must not be EXTREMELY cheap to thread the gun though, since PPS charges $50 for the option. (not to retrofit barrel threads into an existing gun, but to add the option to a new gun).
-That's as an option to a brass gun, which Palmers still makes largely by hand. Most of that charge is in extra labor to add it, as the gun is being hand-assembled.

There's a huge difference between having a machinist make one part on manual machines, and having a CNC shop set up and cut 10,000 parts.

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Old 11-14-2012, 04:39 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Yep - I can see that. Thanks.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:42 PM   #88 (permalink)
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But it might not kill them to make a few blanks so that a guy with the Mokal Mirage or Mega-Z can make use of Freak tips and inserts with the help of an airsmith who does have the time to do such "one-off" work.
-As another shameless plug, I should note that I have Freak "blanks". I've been making them for years, specifically for this kind of thing.

No, they're not listed in my current store (not much is) but I have a binful of them, and I can thread 'em to fit almost any gun, usually for less than $75 including the back.

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Old 11-14-2012, 05:11 PM   #89 (permalink)
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[...] [I]tís hard to see that as being a primary motivating factor to move away from it. My impression is that it was something else that did it...
-Not sure what you're trying to say. Nobody moved "away" from the twist-lock, because nobody moved toward it in the first place. AGD was the only one to ever use it, and they still use it today.

The only time they moved "away" from it was for the limited-edition all-aluminum X-Mag bodies, which, as I recall, were made by a company in the UK and shipped here for assembly at AGD.

Quote:
Huh... a threaded sleeve... you mean, kinda like this?
-Again, we're back to the cost of manufacturing issue; the 'Mag body tube just has a thin ring brazed in place. To make the stainless bodies threaded, that thin ring would instead be a couple of inches long, take five times as long to machine, and would be more difficult to get properly brazed in place.

As with anything else, it's the difference between (just to throw a number out) let's say $20 a body with a less than 1% scrap rate, and a $40 body with a 5% scrap rate.

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I mean, if I can do it for $15 without ever touching a machine, Iím sure AGDís ďmachine shop of the futureĒ could have done it better and cheaper. If they wanted. Which they didnít. Oh well.
-Didn't what? Want a threaded barrel? Why would they?

At the time, there was no such thing as a standard barrel. Every manufacturer had their own barrel threads- or even no threads, like the SL-68 pumps. Yes, the Sniper (soon to be 'Cocker) barrel existed, but the Sniper was the only one to use it, and there was almost no aftermarket support. The only "custom" barrel you could get at the time was a slightly longer factory barrel with ribs to make it look kind of like a Tommy Gun barrel.

AGD, on the other hand, had a system that let you remove the entire barrel and breech with just one-eighth turn. It was the fastest-to-remove barrel at the time, and arguably still is. It was a major selling point.

You seem to be wanting to accuse AGD for not knowing, some ten years in advance, what the de-facto barrel standard was going to eventually be, and making their guns harder to manufacture and more expensive, in order to accept it.

And if you're "only" accusing them of sticking with it today (considering they probably only make a few hundred guns a year nowadays) then why not talk about Tippmann? Why do they stick with the old Pro-Lite threading, when there's easily enough meat there to rethread for 'Cocker barrels? (I know, 'cause I've done it. )

Why did WDP go through three separate (and non-cross-compatible) barrel threads? If they were going to change from the old style, why not go to 'Cocker threads?

Spyder threads are very close to 'Cocker threads, except with a metric pitch. When the Spyder hit the streets in '95, 'Cocker threads weren't yet any kind of standard (it was still only found on the 'Cockers, but there was a healthy aftermarket supply by then) but it wouldn't have taken much at all- a change in maybe three lines of CNC code- to make it take 'Cocker threads.

All of those are just as valid arguments, and have the same reasonings and explanations behind them.

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Old 11-14-2012, 05:37 PM   #90 (permalink)
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While we're on the subject: What was the first non-'Cocker, 'Cocker threaded gun?

Sure, today we have dozens of guns that take 'Cocker threads. I've heard kids say "Cool, it takes the same threads as my Timmy!"

But what was the first non-WGP gun to do so? Earliest I can think of was either the Intimidator or the Tribal, but I'm not sure which one was actually released first.

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