The Dead Zone Paintball Related Chat

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Old 05-14-2013, 04:18 PM   #11 (permalink)
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For me, it has come down to ergonomics. I used to play with an old PVI Shocker and a LED Angel with my 114/3000 tanks. For them, using a drop forward was nice, as you didn't have the huge tank pushing the marker out way forward. But then the 68/4500 tank became more popular. Around 3/4's of the overall length, which still being able to carry almost as much air, and in a lighter weight package. So now, having a drop forward, that pushed the tank reg forward four or so inches, and down two or so inches made it less ergonomic for me. (Yes, I actually did play with a 114/3000 tank directly mounted to a grip, pushed it way out there for me). Now, instead of cramping in your arms to shoulder the marker, you have a more natural feel. Look at M16's and such. They have that adjustable shoulder stock. For SWAT teams, it makes a degree of sense for them to have it nice and tight, for working in a building. But why don't they? Because it isn't as comfortable, and it is a bit more difficult to shoulder and shoot.
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Old 05-14-2013, 04:30 PM   #12 (permalink)
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It's just play style, bottle size, and efficiency.

Speedballers like the low profile and small bottle on an efficient electro. Some markers balance out that way with a loader with batteries and paint.

You really have to snuggle on a 68 with a good drop to cradle it; then you have the marker in your nose.

On the other hand, moving and playing upright with a less efficient marker (and a 68 ci bottle or bigger) still puts a drop to good use.

The small HPA bottles like the 13ci, up to the 45/4500, combine well with a shake and bake loader and anything efficient (pump, mech, or electro) for a relatively small and light package. A drop usually isn't any help for those.

If you can play on 700-900 rounds or less per walk-out and your field has near 4500 psi fills, you can carry a lot less marker onto the field. Getting rid of the drop, and sometimes an ASA, just kind of follows.
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Old 05-14-2013, 04:42 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I remember all the early HPA tanks were huge. All the local guys were usung 114 and 122 size tanks. In those days when you were lucky to get a 2000psi fill, even 122ci might be stretching it.

Originally they were held on with cradles, until HP regs came out with ASA mounts, but they were far to large to shoulder, so you would see drop-forwards that basically put them in the same location as a cradle.

That was the original legitimate use, before speedball. People then realized you could tuck into a bunker using ridiculous drops, but they were generally deemed more of a hassle then they were worth.

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Old 05-14-2013, 06:43 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Old 05-14-2013, 07:02 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
You're right, people don't come to forums to discuss, only to search and read 5 year old posts

Oh you did contribute to that one. You know (from someone who posts on forums) it's often easier to copy+paste your answer rather than hoping people read an old thread. Here you go...

Originally Posted by Goatboy
The move to no-drops easily predated "smaller" tanks.

When HPA came out, you had 68ci's as probably the most common tank size. It still is. When is 68ci larger than 68ci? It isn't. You would be more accurate if you said the (popular) regulators got smaller, but still not totally relevant. (It is true that there were a few regulators back then that couldn't be mounted straight bottomline though.) So that also throws out the gun efficiency argument as well.

People used to put CO2 bottles on drops too now that I think about it. And those typically are easily smaller than HPA bottles.

Air bunkers easily predated the anti-drop scene by a large margin. I do remember that for a while, people were going to 8 to 12 inch barrels, and when airball became popular, they did an about face and switched to 14 inch barrels for the exact purpose of working the bunker, but they didn't try to make their guns longer overall. Specifically, they switched to the longer barrel length quite a while before they went anti-drop, and nobody ever said, "This *gun* is too short for airball." Because people want to hold their gun the way they want to hold their gun.

The fact is, the agglets in this case actually got something right. That is, they started holding their guns (more) correctly. The ergonomics in paintball were (and still are) a total nightmare. The rear-swept grip frame just isn't appropriate for holding up close to your face. It bends your hand/wrist and makes things really awkward. If you're doing this in a mech marker, it's OK because you're not trying to walk it. But trying to walk a trigger like this is just bad. And wrong. It's... badwrong.

You have to remember how people USED to hold paintball guns. Some of you are short on memory, but fortunately we have Warpig.

Hopefully, that will evoke some memories in some of you. I should have found some autococker photos as those are more poignant, but oh well. Note that those both appear to be 68ci tanks, just like in use today.

That really is how people used to hold their markers. It's like they're sighting via the underside of their barrels.

Additionally, somebody figured out that, yes, trying to snap a taller marker in and out of a bunker -- any bunker -- really does suck for reasons previously mentioned.
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Last edited by Venarius; 05-14-2013 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 05-14-2013, 07:08 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:08 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ApoC_101 View Post
Drop forwards were practically gimmicks... Small drops made sense on heavy markers with long 88ci air tanks... But generally they were actually a detriment. Proper stance and hold of the marker puts both your elbows near a 90 degree bend, barrel line about level with the eyes... Not possible with big drop forward. Rail asa's, extenders and different sizes of tanks is all that we require nowadays to get the setup length right... Dropping the tank height is rarely or never a good thing.
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:13 PM   #18 (permalink)
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As in any trend, people tend to over do it.

Big tank, want to make the setup shorter, hey let's drop it forward a bit. Good idea.

A little is good, so a LOT must be better! 12 inches forward, 6 inches down, get that back of the tank even with the back of the grip! Ok, Bad idea. I like a shorter setup and even I agree most of us over did it back then.

Now the pendulum swings the other way. Hey those mega drops were a bad idea, lets push that tank back a bit to a more ergonomic place. Good idea.

Mega drops are bad, so ALL DROPS MUST BE BAD!!11!! Make the guns with proprietary ASA's with internal gas routing so people can NEVER alter the ASA position!! Yeah, bad idea. Probably take another half decade before everyone realizes it.
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:25 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I use them but in reverse.

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Old 05-14-2013, 08:29 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Some good points noted here already.

To add another layer, much of this has to do with changing styles and doctrines of play, and much has to do with geometry and weight distribution.

We often mock agglets for being too obsessed with style. Some of this is legitimate, but plenty is not. Competitive players want to win, and really competitive players aren't going to sacrifice winning for looks.

It is true that a drop will help to center or balance the mass of the marker. Some folk like this. But consider that in modern competitive play, a lot of time is spent on the trigger. A walking trigger. And having the weight to the rear is a plus when walking a trigger.

In general, a two-finger trigger hand cannot both firmly support a marker and also be as fast as possible (nit-pickers, do please read that sentence carefully). A single trigger finger hand can. So in the latter configuration a more balanced setup can often feel much more comfortable. But in the former configuration the current doctrine is to let the shoulders do as much work as possible to keep the hands nimble. In modern configuration the tank and the bulk of the marker weight falls nicely into the shoulder leaving the front hand with less to bear, and the trigger hand with little to do but fly.

Moreover, when working in the snake, or being in any low position where you might have to raise the marker quickly to engage a standing target, a shorter profile will often bring the back of the marker right into your lens. So an aggressive drop is usually not good in such cases.

If you go back further into the archives and look at the setups in the early and mid '90s you will see that the configurations then were often very similar to competitive setups today. Not always, of course, but often. The whole bit about having the butt of the tank extend roughly to the crook of the elbow is certainly not gospel, but it's a pretty decent rule of thumb, and has been a pretty decent rule of thumb for a long time.

It's certainly a good place to begin fine-tuning a personal fit. It generally brings the marker up so that the line of sight is right over the barrel, with room to spare between the mask and marker.

But owing to different marker styles and tank sizes, some setups might require a drop to give the same fit as other setups without. A single tube marker will of course sit differently than a stacked tube marker. So depending on what works for your body and playing preference, you might need a drop on one, but not the other, even though both are set up for the same fit.

It's also important to bear in mind that we are talking about a very young sport, which means rapidly changing playing conditions, plus rapidly changing playing doctrines. So in order to get that extra edge, guys will chase all kinds of potential leads--vertical tanks, back bottles, bottom bottles, reversed bottles, offset bottles, angled bottles, and everything in between. And often, in many cases we come back to square one with different equipment.

We are also talking about personal preferences.

So the long and the short is that the current style of competitive marker plus current style of competitive play does not lend itself to drops, ergo, they are not popular.

But they are still out there, of course.

Hope that helps some.
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