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Old 02-10-2014, 01:12 PM   #131 (permalink)
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The Persistence of Mediocrity

How about this for simple. Average preliminary scores in the division. If you are more than two standard deviation above this average it counts as an event to move you up a bracket (maybe moving up after two brackets). If you are more than two standard deviation below the average it counts as moving you down a bracket (again perhaps it takes two events to move down). This makes each bracket more and more similar and more and more competitive.

Edit: If the lowest bracket has a bunch of teams scoring below the standard deviation cut-off line it shows, mathematically, a need for a lower bracket. Maybe 2 standard deviation is not the right number - maybe its 2.5 - maybe its 1.5. But there is a number somewhere that indicates where people are simply being punching bags for better teams - which in my experience is not fun.
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Old 02-11-2014, 01:53 PM   #132 (permalink)
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Your question is interesting and I would like to reword it slightly. Can recreational paintball exist without tournament ball? Yes - not only yes but we could even have a discussion about if it would be better.

Yup… I think that’s the conversation I’ll be having. If the big tournaments are so markedly unfair (as y’all have indicated), participation is low, and their benefit to the sport is debatable, why should I care if the big tournaments simply fade away?
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Old 02-12-2014, 06:42 PM   #133 (permalink)
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I was in the industry back in 92 thru 95.

I remember having a conversation with the rep from PMI at Mare Island in 1991. He related that they were going to pursue "The younger players- like 14 years old". I said "They might have money, but they rarely have income. They might be able to afford a decent gun but can they afford $80.00 a day for paint". All the rep could keep repeating was "But they have money!"

I was an over-30 player then. I watched as the customers changed from middle aged middle income to- how to put this politely- lower income lower social strata types. With the increased ROF came more post-game confrontations, and the occasional fist fight to settle a score. If I was a parent then I'd have started to think twice about bringing my kids out to play.

I don't know what the answer is. Can we get back to a place we passed 20 years ago? I know I prefer to play with pump these days, as the game resembles my favorite era- that 1990-ish time frame. Pumps, 7oz tanks, maybe a rain cover or two. Sweeping a wooded area for a team that was hunkered down...somewhere out there. Less wrenching on a gun between games. Longer games. Less than a carload of gear to play.
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:02 PM   #134 (permalink)
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I don't know what the answer is. Can we get back to a place we passed 20 years ago? I know I prefer to play with pump these days, as the game resembles my favorite era- that 1990-ish time frame. Pumps, 7oz tanks, maybe a rain cover or two. Sweeping a wooded area for a team that was hunkered down...somewhere out there. Less wrenching on a gun between games. Longer games. Less than a carload of gear to play.
In all honesty. I think you will never see that type of play again at commercial fields. Large pieces of land costs money. Players shooting pumps and few paintballs make little money these days with the price of paintballs as low as they are now. You can see how the economics just don't add up for commercial fields. The only way you would ever get this on a commercial field is if you had enough like minded players and you organized a "private" game. But in over 12 year in business as a field owner, I have yet to have a private game with just like minded gear owners.

I have always wondered why there are not more paintball clubs (especially in larger population areas), where gear owners organize games, either or both outlaw and at commercial fields. With the buying power a club with a decent amount of members would have, fields would then most likely be willing to negotiate with the club and the club could offer games at different fields, changing the gear type allowed (i.e. March 15th game at ABC field for a Pump Only game).

This is way off topic obviously, so sorry about that.
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:54 PM   #135 (permalink)
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I have always wondered why there are not more paintball clubs (especially in larger population areas), where gear owners organize games, either or both outlaw and at commercial fields. With the buying power a club with a decent amount of members would have, fields would then most likely be willing to negotiate with the club and the club could offer games at different fields, changing the gear type allowed
That's an interesting notion.

As it has stood for the last 30 years, the field owners and tournament event promoters have always held all the cards.
Despite the power of the internet and now social media, this model still has not changed.
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Old 02-12-2014, 08:32 PM   #136 (permalink)
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I think the main reason for that is simply lack of player density. There just aren't enough like-minded players in any one location to be a significant force, economically.
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Old 02-13-2014, 07:47 AM   #137 (permalink)
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I think you would be surprised how much pull an organized group can have with a field. We used to run practices all the time at the field and the owner did not worry about it. We provided our own refs, did it on times when the field was not doing anything else, set-up and cleaned up after ourselves, etc. Basically it was a point in time during the week that the field had nothing else going on, the owner did not have to be there, and any money made was pure income.

I think the problems occur when groups want to dictate how things are done or what happens during open play. I think it is bad when tournament teams do it and I do not think it would be good if a club did it. But those days that are not open play.... I bet you would be surprised if you sat down with the owner and offered a paying group how much leeway you could get in pricing and format. Effectively you bring the players and, as long as it does not violate insurance mandates, I bet the owner can find time for you to play.
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Old 02-13-2014, 12:54 PM   #138 (permalink)
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I can provide an example of the pull that organized groups have on fields. The team I play with, which at that time was about 12 players, traveled to a scenario game about 2 hours away. We had played this game the previous year and apparently left an impression. When we contacted the field to register for the game they remembered who we were. The entire scenario game was stacked very heavily against us all day long. We spoke with the field owner & game runner afterwards and he told us that the scenario was completely rewritten when they knew we were coming to play.

Off thread topic, but relevant to the current one.
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Old 02-13-2014, 09:00 PM   #139 (permalink)
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For everyone saying recball is the answer, this is my general experience with recball and why I don't play when I can avoid it (preferring rotations or semi organized tournament style play).


Step 1: Everyone takes forever to play
Step 2: The local field "good guys", usually people who suck and don't play tournaments are are composed of the field bullies some of you guys mentioned, make teams
Step 3: If people don't know who you are, you get placed on a crappy team.

Then the game starts and its a bunch of guys that play the field constantly with no paint budget and frequently illegal guns VS You, a few dudes with Tippmanns, and some rental guys. You get obliterated.

I think pump for big games is the worst thing ever. I played a few games with open class pumps, stock class guns, and pistols...even one with a Crosman 3357. There's usually so many trees, and people cheat so rampantly that you really have to shoot the crap out of people for them to get out. Conversely, there are always a ton of people that don't understand that shooting AT people doesn't mean they're hitting them so you guy people that shoot in your vague direction and assume you're cheating when they don't hit you. In fact, when I look at the last times I played dedicated woodsball rec stuff (scenarios), almost ALL of those had EPIC amounts of discontent - cheating players, arguing, near fights, cursing, overshooting, rule breaking, etc. When I look at the last 10 tournaments I played, there wasn't any really overtly bad behavior.
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Old 02-13-2014, 09:31 PM   #140 (permalink)
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NSGSplatmaster... you don't sound like you have much fun playing paintball any more. It sounds like you are saying that tournaments are no fun and are unfair, but they are still better than any alternative.

I wish I could fix it for you, Dude. I mean, I really do.

If your ever around Atlanta (and the ice has melted), IM me. We'll hit Arkenstone or Carnage and we'll have a good time.

<addendum>
Have you looked into this?
https://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/t...ml#post2891325
IIRC you said you were in New England.
</addendum>
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