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Old 01-23-2014, 11:15 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post
I think we should seriously reconsider prizes at the lower divisions and in fact at anything but the very highest. Only the elite of the elite should be competing for skill based prizes.

If prizes at the lower division are not totally done away with make them random draw door prizes. If people feel like the outcome of the match should have some determination allow a lottery system - IE every game each team playing gets at least 1 ping pong ball with the winning team getting 2.
Prizes have become sandbagging incentives. When I used to race MX and was starting out locally, a race win was a $25 dollar voucher towards my next entry. As a kid who paid for my racing out of pocket with summer and weekend jobs that was huge.

I can see prizes for D3 and up. Those guys really grind out practices on a regular basis.
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Old 01-23-2014, 11:24 AM   #72 (permalink)
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I can see prizes for D3 and up. Those guys really grind out practices on a regular basis.
Which is to me one of the major issues actually. Maybe this is not entirely fair but my question is what do we do with the long time player who may accumulate experience over the course of many years which forces them into D3 but does not want to be involved to the level that D3 players are.

Somehow the recreational player is finding himself (or her) competing against organized teams who spend a great deal of time practicing and coordinating. Somehow we have to figure a way to separate out those playing for fun from those who are playing with dreams of grandeur and a willingness to practice in order to attempt to achieve those dreams.

I like tournaments. I like the competition. I like the organization. I like scoreboard watching. I have played in too many tournaments to be classified in the lowest division. I would like to play tournaments but my skill level is so far behind my classified level that its very nearly a lost cause to go out there and that does not even consider team coordination that well practiced teams have. Its a very egocentric question but one that I have person interest in asking: where is my place in tournament paintball?

The answer, at least is seems, is its not. I assume I am not alone, though if I am the following lamentation lacks any real strength: its a pity for tournament paintball. People like me are going to pay the price without asking for discounts, incentives, free sponsorships, etc. Keep the price within reason and I am going to play for the fun of playing. I don't care about prizes to the point that I would prefer there either were not prizes or they were not performance based.
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Old 01-23-2014, 12:42 PM   #73 (permalink)
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I like tournaments. I like the competition. I like the organization. I like scoreboard watching. I have played in too many tournaments to be classified in the lowest division. I would like to play tournaments but my skill level is so far behind my classified level that its very nearly a lost cause to go out there and that does not even consider team coordination that well practiced teams have. Its a very egocentric question but one that I have person interest in asking: where is my place in tournament paintball?
That would leave you playing in recreational local competitions which should be played for fun with no prizes (maybe a plaque or something similar for winning and/or placing). But then if these local tournaments should be played for fun and with no ranking, "sandbagging" can be a problem (even when nothing is on the line, it sucks getting "beat up" every game). Therefore local competitions, played for fun, should be played much differently. The obvious big difference should be the amount of paint being flung about. Although better teams/players would still win more often, players aren't going to feel they are getting "beat up", so the competitions could span a much wider level of skill sets. My vote would go for using pumps, no auto triggering, to allow those with lower skill levels to still have a fighting chance, and most importantly, to still have fun, while being involved in a competition, rather than just straight recreational paintball.
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:33 PM   #74 (permalink)
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That would leave you playing in recreational local competitions which should be played for fun with no prizes (maybe a plaque or something similar for winning and/or placing). But then if these local tournaments should be played for fun and with no ranking, "sandbagging" can be a problem (even when nothing is on the line, it sucks getting "beat up" every game). Therefore local competitions, played for fun, should be played much differently. The obvious big difference should be the amount of paint being flung about. Although better teams/players would still win more often, players aren't going to feel they are getting "beat up", so the competitions could span a much wider level of skill sets. My vote would go for using pumps, no auto triggering, to allow those with lower skill levels to still have a fighting chance, and most importantly, to still have fun, while being involved in a competition, rather than just straight recreational paintball.
Not saying your wrong but not many people want to play that way as has been pointed out. I would love to play pump but not many(as only a few teams) ever seem to sign up. There was a pump/mech/rental gun only tournament here locally not that long ago. Lot of people interested but low turnout.

Quote:
Which is to me one of the major issues actually. Maybe this is not entirely fair but my question is what do we do with the long time player who may accumulate experience over the course of many years which forces them into D3 but does not want to be involved to the level that D3 players are.
I believe most organizations allow teams to have a player from one division above on their roster.
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Old 01-23-2014, 03:01 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Maybe a solution is to use Sportsmanship prizes? I know they did at one point in scenario games. Maybe plaques for 1st - 3rd, and a cash prize for sportsmanship. I think that would really help with sandbagging and cheating, since the money is in how you treat the other folks.

Also, in addition to the other things mentioned (points for finishing the game early, for example) maybe we could give players a fixed amount of paint per game, and give points for paint left over after the game. So two teams with the same amount of wins would be separated by who made their shots count. Plus, it would keep costs lower, since teams wouldn't have to buy paint they can't use if they don't make it to the finals.
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Old 01-23-2014, 03:18 PM   #76 (permalink)
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If you’re a player who has been doing rec-ball for years, is actually “pretty good”, and you gets invited to play on a team you’ll have to start at zero in local field tourneys. Once you have played a few games, you’ll have some kind of ranking.

I’ll grant that I made an error in focusing on teams instead of players, but team performance is also very important. So, perhaps like baseball, we have additional rankings for players. Maybe something like…
Flag Carries
Flag Hangs
Hangs per Carry Average
Carries per Game Average
That provides some means of comparison for players, and only allows limited sand-bagging. Yeah, he can bag a couple of times, but then his ranking moves up, and so does his team’s (because presumably they are winning, and increasing the Team Win Average), moving them all up the ranking ladder and putting them against more competent teams. At the next level of competition the top XX% are “Awesome”, the next XW% are “Great”, the next XV% are “Darn Good”, and the bottom XU% are “Not Bad”. At the event, “Awesome” plays “Awesome”, “Great” plays “Great”, “Darn Good” plays “Darn Good”, and “Not Bad” plays “Not Bad”. When a “Not Bad” team gets really good, their Team Win Average will move them up to the next higher bracket. If a player leaves, he can go to any team, but he cannot play for a lower-ranked team then the one he left, but he can go up. And the players on these other teams can look at his numbers and decide if they want to go talk to him.

As for prizes, I would say they are a requirement. Even a small prize is remarkably motivational. Each level of play (local, State, Regional, National – or whatever you wanna call it) gets progressively nicer prizes. Down at local level we’re talking Free Field passes, Free Case-o-paint, a nice plaque or charming trophy, etc… Up at nationals: Guns, Motorcycles, tattoos, bail money, whatever. Likewise, AWESOME division teams would get better prizes than NOT BAD division teams.

I know it looks like I am trying to say “This is what I would like the sport to be”, but this is really “How do we address these issues?”

I will always favor limited paint, and even gravity-only hoppers, as I have seen on the field that this makes for more interesting play, but there should be an “Unlimited” class for those who wish to burn through a lot of paint. Run them at the same event and see which one people (players, spectators, organizers) like best. I don’t think “stock” makes for good “Watching” (but it’s GREAT to play), but then neither does “Unlimited” (also great to play). Pump can be fun to watch, it has enough shooting with its maneuvering, and limited semi has enough maneuvering with its shooting. I think Stock has not quite enough shooting, and unlimited not quite enough maneuvering (until everyone gets low on paint).
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Old 01-23-2014, 03:31 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Ironnerd can you ever move down?

In MLB a AAA pitcher may come in and make a spot start and immediately go back down to AAA afterwards. A player in the MLB may even be demoted as far as single A ball and work his way back up (there are contract issues I understand). If a MLB player takes a few years off he is unlikely to retake his spot in MLB immediately upon coming back to play.
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Old 01-23-2014, 03:46 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Ohhh... good point, Lohman.
Maybe you go down one class for each full season you sit out?

I suppose an alternate would be to take all the stats of all the team members and average them together. Then drop the team into the appropriate division. That way if you drop out of a team, go to a lower team, your numbers will bring up their average, and move the whole team into about the right division.
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Old 01-23-2014, 03:49 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Maybe I am approaching this wrong. Somehow all of tournament paintball gets lumped into one big group. When I go play "beer league" softball, even if its in a tournament format, only a few of us kid ourselves that we could be doing this in the MLB.

When I go to a large national paintball tournament nearly every player there from the top divisions to the bottom seems to think they are just one step away from being invited to join Dynasty or one of the other true "pro" teams. Heck, half of them are already wearing the equipment. Maybe professional paintball would not make it if it was not inclusive but maybe we need to find a way for it to be less inclusive....

Unfortunately the feeling does siphon down. I have been to enough local tournament where the "big teams" on the local level were just using it as warm up for their D4 participation on a national level. In the end you had a couple teams of players who all thought they were a few good games away from joining Dynasty proving how good they were against the casual player on a local level.
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Old 01-23-2014, 04:48 PM   #80 (permalink)
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"Beer League Paintball"? An organic "grass roots" series...
Now that, is a cool idea.

Maybe talk to the dudes running the Gravity League.

You're all too right about some players thinking they are ready for the big time. Reminds me of the Mel Brooks skit about being qualified to be an astronaut - "Hey, I got gloves and everything!"

With a real ranking system, an event organizer could prevent neo-Dynasty players from trouncing a rec-ball tourney.
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