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Old 01-07-2016, 02:25 PM   #81 (permalink)
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In response to the original post, most modern electronic guns are capable of being capped at rates of fire equal to or below semi automatic rental guns. Why is that not the simplest solution?

Edit: I do get the principle of taking care of the new players, I agree with it completely. I just don't get how the type of gear/markers used has anything to do with it.

As a digressing personal opinion not directed at anyone in particular, judging a person based on gear type divides an already shrinking, splintering community even further.
super good post.
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Old 01-07-2016, 02:55 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Why not? I do it. Haven't played semi in years. Slappa does it with his single-shot pirate. Tons of people here don't play with tourney-level guns every time they go out. That's self-policing. It's not unheard of, it's not outlandish. I'm simply arguing that when playing with new players, everyone should do it.
It maybe the field I go to but there always a group of people with high level guns destroying walk ons and new players. It is hard for the field owner to step in when the players are buying 2+ cases each for one sunday and the pumps use a bag maybe less.
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Old 01-07-2016, 03:32 PM   #83 (permalink)
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It maybe the field I go to but there always a group of people with high level guns destroying walk ons and new players. It is hard for the field owner to step in when the players are buying 2+ cases each for one sunday and the pumps use a bag maybe less.
THIS! Field owners are de-incentivized from regulating people who shoot a lot of paint, as, well, thats where fields make their money.
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Old 01-07-2016, 03:38 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Which is why we shouldn't rely on fields to fix things if they need fixing. Players should take the initiative.
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Old 01-07-2016, 03:47 PM   #85 (permalink)
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I agree...same argument that we have had for nearly 30 years...some guys just cant give up the idea that they will be behind the eight ball if they don't have the latest paint flinging tech.,
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Old 01-07-2016, 03:51 PM   #86 (permalink)
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I've seen players make kids cry and I never want to be that guy...
I've seen this as well, in my case it was someone shooting 12.5 ramping when the field was semi only. I remember it was a close shot, about 10 feet (but this guy was well known to not offer a surrender and spray everyone down) and this kid was playing with his dad and was about 9 years old.
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Old 01-07-2016, 05:31 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Just fyi everyone the answer is stock class for all questions related to paintball and to solve all paintball related problems except carbon emissions because we gotta use those 12 grams.

Double FYI for paintball rules there should be no "offer" of surrender, its either mandatory surrender at X distance when guy is behind you or no surrender and you get shot in the booty. "offer" of surrender makes for some ridiculous and dangerous john woo tactics.
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Old 01-07-2016, 05:55 PM   #88 (permalink)
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I see this in several different lights.

I for one, dislike a type of equipment that is strongly correlated with the problem of overshooting: The double finger trigger- it was specifically designed to get around the implications of the "Semi-auto Only" requirement (put forth by the insurance industry) for the competitive segment of paintball. It then proliferated to the recreational segment and has caused headaches (figuratively and literally) ever since.

I have a problem with the industry (field owners, manufacturers) and some extent, players with their reliance on the "Semi-Auto Only" rule. I already addressed manufacturers above.

The field owners are to blame when they allow double finger triggers (specifically calling out any walkable designs to include electros, pneumatics, etc) or Tippmann RTs but rent single-finger mechanicals (i.e. the plain Jane Tippmann 98). They exacerbate the issue when they give the safety and overview brief as if the 98s were the only guns that existed (i.e. not providing realistic expectations of what they will come up against on the field, more on expectations to follow).

On the other hand, I don't believe in an owner-based or even social-based approach to restrict what folks use. Starting a movement like 'experienced players should use pumps' is an attempt to create a social environment that would have the same effect as a ban. I think this approach should be used as someone mentioned earlier to start your own group/play format and if it catches on, so be it.

Additionally, I've heard a similar argument: "First strikes should never be used in rec ball, especially on newer players". I strongly disagree with this statement in that I don't think it's an equipment problem. It's an expectations problem. Reinforcing this position is the fact that the vast majority of players I ever shot in recreational play were new players (not targeted but rather, statistical as the majority of players where I played were new) and I only ever once got a complaint and it was from a young boy (under age 12) where I shot him on the finger (only his head/mask, gun and hand were exposed) and he complained just like any other new player would- bare finger hits "suck" (and no, there was no visible damage to his finger).

Now, as to why I think expectations (of the new players) are the root of the problem:

1. New players come to the field and are told that the field (and it's guns) are semi-auto only. Not being completely ignorant, they quickly understand that semi-auto = one shot per pull of trigger (even if they never heard the term before, by the time the safety/overview brief and test firing on the chrono range is done, they understand). They hear the double-finger shooters sending of strings at the chrono range (or in the first match) and they instantly, and un-mistakenly understand that they are outgunned.

2. The second problem occurs if they think* they got lit up they will react in one of in several ways: Some will complain. Others will get vengeful. Some others will resolve to get better equipment and yet others will try to improve their playing skills. *New players sometime assume they were overshot by a single player when in reality they were shot by multiple players (1-2 shots each) because they exposed themselves, or failed to properly call themselves out but, will complain anyways.

3. The third problem occurs when newer players, after being exposed to double finger triggered guns, go out and buy a gun to attempt to put themselves on a 'level' playing field. Their lack of practice, discipline and understanding (i.e. 5 balls in the air before first shot hits) lead to more folks getting overshot.

I personally have observed just how much expectations make or break the perception and incidence of overshooting:

Warplay Paintball rented A-5s with RTs (allowed any and all modes) and, were very frank in the safety/overview briefing on how players should behave- i.e. "don't want to get shot up- don't go in the structures", reasons why you should just get up and go to the sidelines "other folks won't hear you over the shooting", "you may be walking or standing in someone else's line of fire", "Don't light people up because they'll be right back in (regen-based games) and after you". They backed all this up with serious, 'not afraid to be in it' reffing. So, over the course of several years of playing there, before and after First Strikes came out, I never, ever, heard of anyone complaining about overshooting even though the vast majority of their players were new (via groupon and other online discount programs).

Even with First Strikes at several fields (including Warplay for a short time), I got permission from the fields to use them and using a magfed gun (first the Tiberius and later the FN) I got loads of questions from new players (who were often equipment owners) in the staging area asking first 'where is your paint' (after not seeing a hopper) and then seeing the rounds in the magazine and going "Whoa, what are those?" (interested and amused vice fearful). I then would tell them- what they were, and their benefits. They would quickly realize the implications of my setup and ask "how many shots do you have" and would appear to be okay with my small number of rounds when compared to their hoppers alone. So, I was framing the expectations and they were finding them reasonable at least enough to play with. Being the first in my area to use them I maintained communications with the owners, and never, ever, once did I get a complaint from them, and only once did I get a complaint personally (as I mentioned earlier).
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Old 01-07-2016, 06:17 PM   #89 (permalink)
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it's not the gun, it's the player. shoot whatever gun you want, as long as you are aware of who your opponent is, and try not to grind them into dust if they're mostly renters.
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Old 01-07-2016, 06:19 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by uv_halo View Post
Starting a movement like 'experienced players should use pumps' is an attempt to create a social environment that would have the same effect as a ban.
Yup.

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I think this approach should be used as someone mentioned earlier to start your own group/play format and if it catches on, so be it.
Yup. That's the idea. And if it catches on, it would, as you said, have the same effect as a ban. It would be socially unacceptable to use electros in mixed recball. Yes. That would be the outcome. That's exactly the point.

Isn't that the "you shouldn't ban the equipment, it's about the field's culture" argument in a nutshell? Voluntary behavior establishes norms, significant deviation from those norms becomes unacceptable. If that argument, that it's about the field's culture and the mindset of the players, is in any way meaningful, that's how things go down. Otherwise it's just players saying one thing in the dead zone and doing another on the field.

(Just be clear, this is specifically for mixed recball - new and experienced players on the same field. In no other situations does this apply.)
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